Denoting Celtic Deism?

topic posted Sat, February 16, 2008 - 4:09 PM by  MacMorrighan
Hey guys, tonight I happened by the Half Price Bookstore and, as often occures, I found a book that I've been wanting to add to my personal Library for a while, now: TGE Powell's "The Celts"! Anyway, he said exactly what other Celktic scholars have said: that the Celts had a type of inter-tribal religion whereby the singular male god of each tribe (personified by the chiftain, pressumibly) was mated to the tribal land-goddess, rather than having a polytheistic religion as so many Pagans often imagine. Hey, a later scholar (Barry Cunliffe) even used the exact same illustrative examples as he: Th Daghdha and The Morrighan. Moreover, based upon the evidence found in material culture, iconography, and medieval textual sources most (if not all) of the deities we have on record are merely different manifestations of epithets for each other. In other words (which is also based upon my research) The Morrighan is an identity (rather than merely associated with) Anu, as well as Challeach, Eire, Samain, and other named goddesses from the Continent who I can't think of right now.

So, I was wondering, is anyone present, aware of any theologically-based terms or denotations that can describe such a religious belief [examples of the sort of therms I'm after are: henotheism, polytheism, monotheism, et al.] ? I ask, of course, because if I describe it in these terms, and even seem to hint at (despite the evidence of my argument) a schema whereby "all gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess" I'd be pilloried as not only a "history revisionist", but a "Fluff Bunny" of the highest degree, because everyone has been told that such a schema is an invented fiction with no bases in ancient history that was advanced by we "Wiccans" (though I do not call myself by that title, because of it's "Fluffy" connotations, these days).

By the way, in re-reading many of my books by noted Celtic scholars (specialists in the field), I see that all of them are firm in their belief that the Insular lit. [the great Irish epics] represent and reflect the ancient Irish paganism to one extent or another, and are filled with evidence of gods and goddesses. But, when one reads Hutton's "The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles" he says with authoritarian zeal that these texts represent no pagan evidence nor present deities of any kind! How can he make these claims when they are no only so extremist, but atypical, and contrary to what actual specialists in the field of Celtic Studies are saying? Personally, I was also skeptical about his claim that he had Miranda Green read his sections on Celtic history when they were so far divorced from his actual views! One wonders what sections of his book she *actually* read? But, sadly, far too many Pagans uncritically cite Hutton, as though he is representative of all of academia (his authoritative voice is obviously detrimental in this regard; would it kill him to admit when he's speculating and use blatant qualifiers when a topic is still opoen to conjecture like European scholars are so fond of doing?!), when he's not--and they just don't understand that, I'm afraid. And, this is most worrisome of all!

Another thing that really bothers me about Pagans, as a whole, is their seemingly desperate NEED to pidgeon-hole certain so-called "Dark"-Goddesses, such as the Kali Ma and the Morrighan! As a result, if one doesn't define them as essentiually blood-thirsty, despite actual evidence to the contrary, they are labled with the upmost scorn! Kali is a primary example of this and contemporary Pagan ignorance to how She is factually worshipped! Unless one views Her as dangerous and threatening (even Deborah Lipp someone castigated me--as she is a Kali worshipper--for suggesting anything to the contrary, despite actual Hindu worship) in spite of the fact that Kali is generally not offered blood sacrifices (unless, of course, by the seeming fringe element) and in a great many districts (even in the US) she is viewed (even physically when Her statues are hewn) as compassionate and loving! But, we Pagans tend to remain ignorant of this evidence, and should we happen to hear it, we disregard it with blatant cavalear! But, my own goddess--The Morrighan--is another story.

In the following article: wicca.timerift.net/gods/morrigan.html The author sites one "historian" named TW Rolleston and goes on to claim that "historiants" (plural!) are against identifying the mother-goddess, Anu, with the Morrighan. But, how CAN they be when it's actually in the Irish epics where The Morrighan is listed as another identity OF (rather than a mere alternate "aspect" or association with) Anu! So, what "historians" is she talking about; and how can this Rolleston fellow be against this comperison when it's in black and white? I flipped through the book in question at the Half Price Bookstore, and Rolleston doesn't say; he just claims that another scholar identifies the two deities (as if they are seperate and entirely distinct personas), but he disagrees with such a position. Ugh... Crap like that makes me want to bash my red head in! LOL!

Okay, enough ranting from me, guys. ;o)
posted by:
MacMorrighan
Iowa
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Sat, February 16, 2008 - 5:41 PM
    From "The Golden Bough" by Sir James Frazer

    "We have seen that according to a widespread belief, which is not without a foundation in fact, plants reproduce their kinds through the sexual union of male and female elements, and that on the principle of homoeopathic or imitative magic this reporduction is supposed to be stimulated by the real or mock marriage of men and women, who masquerade for the time being as spirits of vegetation. Such magical dramas have played a great part in the popular festivals of Euriope, and based as they are on a very crude conception of natural law, it is clear that they must have been handed down from a remote antiquity.
    ...Now in the first chapter of this book we found reason to believe that the priest who bore the title of King of the Wood at Nemi had for his mate the goddess of the grove, Diana herself.
    ...On the northern shore of the lake, right under the precipitous cliffs on which the modern village of Nemi is perched, stood the sacred grove and sanctuary of Diana Nemorensis, or Diana of the Wood. The lake and the grove were sometimes known as the lake and grove of Aricia. But the town of Aricia (the modern La Riccia) was situated about three miles off, at the foot of the Alban Mount, and separated by a steep descent from the lake, whih lies in a small crater-like hollow on the mountain side. In this sacred grove there grew a certain tree round which at any time of the day, and probably far into the night, a grim figure might be seen to prowl. In his hand he carried a drawn sword, and he kept peering warily about him as if at every instant he expected to be set upon by an enemy. He was a priest and a murderer; and the man for whom he looked was sooner or later to murder him and hold the priesthood in his stead. Such was the rule of the sanctuary. A candidate for the priesthood could only succeed to office by slaying the priest, and having slain him, he retained office till he was himself slain by a stronger or a craftier.
    The post which he held by this precarious tenure carried with it the title of kink; but surely no crowned head ever lay uneasier, or was visited by more evil dreams, than his."

    These are some exerpts.



    Kenneth
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Sat, February 16, 2008 - 5:50 PM
    And as far as your, err, disregard for some Pagans' attitude towards the Goddess. I tend to agree. The Goddess, for me, has different aspects. As you well know, they are the Maiden, the Mother and the Crone. How she appears to us depends on what she is trying to accomplish in the world at any given time, or how we invoke her.
    Yes, she is bloothirsty (Kali, Hel, Morrigan), but she is loving too (Demeter, Hestia, Frigg).

    She's three! three! three goddesses in one! :-)


    Kenneth
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Sat, February 16, 2008 - 10:16 PM
    The texts don't actually say that they are one person, simply that they had the same parents, which probably means that at one time they were bound by blood. Each of the Irish gods are individuals in their own right, one not to be mistaken for another unless specifically referred to as the same, like An Daghdha and Eochaid Ollathair for example. Many see Macha as an aspect of an Mhór Rioghain, which isn't accurate either - more likely she was another sister or a sister in arms.
    • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

      Sun, February 17, 2008 - 12:18 AM
      Gods arent necessarily based on real people, they represent things only. Bound by blood is a human concept, because it is of the physicial realm.
      • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

        Sun, February 17, 2008 - 12:25 PM
        Spiritual realm and physical realm are not separate things. Some of the gods are divine ancestors of our peoples, some are forces of nature that were present before the gods.
        • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

          Sun, February 17, 2008 - 1:35 PM
          Coyote wrote:

          "Spiritual realm and physical realm are not separate things. Some of the gods are divine ancestors of our peoples, some are forces of nature that were present before the gods."

          Exactly! Nothing is seperate in Celtic spirituality. :)
      • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

        Sun, February 17, 2008 - 1:30 PM
        The Gods of Ireland however are, and in most cases is provable. Like Macha of the red hair for example, who was a queen of Ireland. The Tuatha de Danann were the 'heros' of Ireland, and were people up until they were defeated by the sons of Mildh, only then did they inhabit the mounds of the sidhe and become in between.

        As with most things of a 'mystical' nature in Irish (and other cultures) culture of a mystical nature the Gods live between realms - between the layers of what is *perceived* as the physical and the spiritual - which is what makes them such special beings. Being in between realms make them masters of the path of Draíocht (or Druídecht) as well as masters of Feth Fiada, taking any form the so choose - be it a stream, mountain, or cloud. A salmon, a bull, or a hawk. They exist completely between realms, overlapping our own, and the other. Bound by blood isn't only a human concept, it was also greatly honored by the De Danann, as any look at the primary tales would show.
        • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

          Sun, February 17, 2008 - 4:11 PM
          Gods are mythological. Does your soul have blood?
          • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

            Sun, February 17, 2008 - 4:17 PM
            Yes it does. My blood has soul as well.
            • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

              Wed, February 20, 2008 - 4:47 AM
              Blood is a physical substance...your soul is esoteric and spirit.
              • Soul of Blood, Blood of Soul

                Wed, February 20, 2008 - 1:51 PM
                There is spirit and soul essence in blood. Why else use it in magic?

                My physical body, that walks and talks and breathes and shits, is a part of my soul. My body does not house my soul, my soul surrounds and infuses my body. So my 'physical' blood is part of my soul, as my body is part of my soul.

                Physical and spiritual are not separate.
              • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

                Wed, February 20, 2008 - 4:54 PM
                "Blood is a physical substance...your soul is esoteric and spirit. "

                Hmmm, according to modern western philosophy yes - but not to the ancestors. According to them, the 'Fein' or self, and Bith the cosmos (land sky and sea) corresponded with each other, Cnaimh (bones) corresponded to Cloch (stone), Fuil (blood) corresponded to Muir (the sea) Imradud (Mind) corresponded to Gealach (Moon) etc.

                According to my own understandings of the Irish Dúile and the three-fold Celtic cosmos, we are each a manifestation of both. Is the water of the sea separate from the earth? Are the mountains separate? Are our thoughts which float above us any more separate than the moon in the sky? There is nothing secret about spirit, it is simply apart of the self in one's first of three centers of being.
    • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

      Sun, February 17, 2008 - 7:01 PM
      Sorry, buddy, but...the texts make it explicitely clear that they are [Anu and The Morrighan], in fact, one and the same. Moreover, many deities actually have inter-changible identities, rather than so-called "variant Aspects" or deity-"associates".
      • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

        Sun, February 17, 2008 - 10:07 PM
        'Explicitly clear'

        Would you mind showing the the stanza that specifically says that an Mhór Rioghain and Danu/Anu are the same individual character in the text? And if you don't mind perhaps you can include the name of the translating scholar?

        And no, the identities of the gods are not interchangeable unless specifically out lined in the texts. What the gods were often interchangeable with were specific functions and jobs within Celtic society. For example Ogma and Filidecht, Danu and smith craft (as changing one form to another was considered an absolute mysticism), An Daghdha and the knowledge sought by Druids. Not to mention the vast amount of Irish and other Celtic gods of specific areas who are lost to us forever.

        It sounds to me like you have read a little to far into things, giving them your own 'Wiccan' all gods are one kind of philosophy. Which is fine, theres nothing wrong with doing that - Just don't claim them to be ancient philosphies. :)
        • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

          Mon, February 18, 2008 - 11:14 AM
          >>>Would you mind showing the the stanza that specifically says that an Mhór Rioghain and Danu/Anu are the same individual character in the text? And if you don't mind perhaps you can include the name of the translating scholar?<<<

          Kenneth and John, I turn you towards Prof. John Carey's & John T. Koch's translation of The Book of Invasions (I believe this is the text in question--I don't have my copy of this book in front of me at the moment), found within their academic compendium, "The Celtic Heroic Age". It is here that The Morrighan and Anu are explicitely identified as alternate identities for each other. I don't understand WHY Pagans are so innately skepticle about this unequivocal data found in primary source-material. John Carey is a phenominal scholar who presently heads the Celtic Studies graduate program at an Irish University where he is als an Advisor for graduate students in the Celtic Studies discipline.

          Despite the fact that much of the insular Mythological Cycle suffers from clerical redaction, such a case cannot be applied to this evidence, because it is a fascet of Celtic religion that is relatively wide-ranging.

          >>>And no, the identities of the gods are not interchangeable unless specifically out lined in the texts. What the gods were often interchangeable with were specific functions and jobs within Celtic society. For example Ogma and Filidecht, Danu and smith craft (as changing one form to another was considered an absolute mysticism), An Daghdha and the knowledge sought by Druids. Not to mention the vast amount of Irish and other Celtic gods of specific areas who are lost to us forever.<<<

          Sorry buddy, you're simply over-reaching, here. Most experts in the field now acknowledge that the Celtic Gods and the Celtic Goddesses were interhcnagible not only in local name, but in geographical function and iconography. For example, The Gaullish Succellos and the Irish Daghdha are frequently indentified as each other by most scholars due to similar iconography and similar consorts [Rosemerta and The Morrighan, respectively]. However, this particular example is a matter of academic hermeneutics--but it is still one that is highly regarded!

          >>>It sounds to me like you have read a little to far into things, giving them your own 'Wiccan' all gods are one kind of philosophy. Which is fine, theres nothing wrong with doing that - Just don't claim them to be ancient philosphies. :)<<<

          Oh, no. You misread me entirely! :o) This is precisely what I disavow--it was the evidence and academic consensus that has drawn me to this conclusion.
          • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

            Tue, February 19, 2008 - 6:23 PM
            <<<Kenneth and John, I turn you towards Prof. John Carey's & John T. Koch's translation of The Book of Invasions (I believe this is the text in question--I don't have my copy of this book in front of me at the moment), found within their academic compendium, "The Celtic Heroic Age". It is here that The Morrighan and Anu are explicitely identified as alternate identities for each other. I don't understand WHY Pagans are so innately skepticle about this unequivocal data found in primary source-material. John Carey is a phenominal scholar who presently heads the Celtic Studies graduate program at an Irish University where he is als an Advisor for graduate students in the Celtic Studies discipline.

            Despite the fact that much of the insular Mythological Cycle suffers from clerical redaction, such a case cannot be applied to this evidence, because it is a fascet of Celtic religion that is relatively wide-ranging. >>>


            So far I think Coyote has come farther in making an acceptable argument that anyone. As I told him however your scholar is building from the confusion surrounding three goddesses since around 11th century. :)

            <<<Sorry buddy, you're simply over-reaching, here. Most experts in the field now acknowledge that the Celtic Gods and the Celtic Goddesses were interhcnagible not only in local name, but in geographical function and iconography. For example, The Gaullish Succellos and the Irish Daghdha are frequently indentified as each other by most scholars due to similar iconography and similar consorts [Rosemerta and The Morrighan, respectively]. However, this particular example is a matter of academic hermeneutics--but it is still one that is highly regarded! >>>

            LoL - I'm over reaching? What does two Celtic gods who may or may not be one cultures evolution of the other have to do with three IRISH goddesses? As well, what I was saying is that the names of the gods were often interchangeable with function, or place, this however doesn't mean that they were interchangeable with each other.
        • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

          Tue, February 19, 2008 - 3:17 PM
          "Would you mind showing the the stanza that specifically says that an Mhór Rioghain and Danu/Anu are the same individual character in the text? And if you don't mind perhaps you can include the name of the translating scholar? "

          I know this wasn't addressed to me, but I checked it out and found this. This is from the Irish Text Society translation of the Lebor Gabala Erenn

          Near the end of Stanza 62

          'Badb and Macha and Anand, of whom are the Paps of Anu in Luachar were the three daughters of Ernmas the she-farmer.'

          Stanza 64
          'Ernmas had other three daughters, Badb and Macha and Morrigu, whose name was Anand. Her three sons were Glon and Gaim and Coscar.'

          It seems from "...and Morrigu, whose name was Anand." and from "...and Anand, of whom are the Paps of Anu..." That an Mhor Rioghain and Anu are the same. However, in the book of invasions the Tuatha de Danann are like regular people. Maybe more advanced in certain sciences and arts, but people, not gods. So, this text might not be the best example of deity-hood.

          www.ancienttexts.org/library...ala.html
          • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

            Tue, February 19, 2008 - 5:54 PM
            @Coyote

            Interesting, though I can't really say this equals proof per say, though it does build the case, however I do think you might be interested in the article on the link. It covers the confusion surrounding these goddesses which has existed since the 11 century.

            www.maryjones.us/jce/anu.html
            • Re: Three in One

              Wed, February 20, 2008 - 2:26 PM
              EXCELLENT link, John! Thank you.

              I always felt there was a connection between the Morrigan and Brighid. This link explains a great deal about the confusion the monk/scholars left us. Perhaps all the goddesses ARE one Goddess. It's difficult when an entity has more than one name. Or when what seem like names were actually titles and epithets, that if we could understand the language we would realize that.

              My Matron goddess is laughing in my ear. For in truth we are all ONE, gods, humans, animals, rocks, stars, all.
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Mon, February 18, 2008 - 8:02 AM
    Who wrote "the texts"?
    • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

      Mon, February 18, 2008 - 1:03 PM
      I'm with you McMorrighan. My point in asking my question was that, no matter how much scholarship is done on these sorts of subjects, we'll never truly know what the Celtic peoples of Ireland, Scotland, Wales, England, Brittany and the rest of the continent actually believed. We don't have the benefit of being taught by our parents, grandparents, extended families, and priests/druids who held this knowledge from ages ago. I don't trust "texts" to tell me exactly what to believe, but I do trust my mind and my heart.

      For myself, I can only think about what I read, from as many "texts" as possible, and decide for myself what makes sense and what I will choose to believe. There is no possible way in my mind to know the Divine. Only to understand it as well as a mortal can.

      Also, knowing what I know from reading ancient history and historical linguistics, people borrowed from each other. Some people were conquered and the gods of the victor imposed on them, and others were assimilated giving their gods to the new people.

      Anyway, just my two cents.

      Kenneth
      • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

        Wed, February 20, 2008 - 4:53 AM
        Unfortunately a lot of our ancient traditions have been lost, but we can rebuild it on the old foundations. Study the arts and sciences, trust in faith also.

        There's no shame in being modern, lets face it, some beliefs are not practical or relevant to our new world anyway. There was a time when Celtic culture was absorbing indigenou cultures across Europe, so now, Celtic culture is being absorbed and renewed by a new culture.
        • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

          Wed, February 20, 2008 - 5:10 PM
          "There's no shame in being modern, lets face it, some beliefs are not practical or relevant to our new world anyway. There was a time when Celtic culture was absorbing indigenou cultures across Europe, so now, Celtic culture is being absorbed and renewed by a new culture. "

          Now this I agree with! You're absolutely right. I'll be the first to admit that if we can't uncover knew Celtic and Druidic knowledge we may as well pack up and go home, this however doesn't exempt us from the responsibility of keeping separate what is new and what is ancient. For example, Robert Grave's Lunar tree calendar or the work of Iolo Morgannwg, neither of which are ancient, yet both claimed to be. As a result many people were fooled, and felt lied to when it the truth was revealed.

          Power of An Daghdha's heart be in you.

          Slan go foill!
    • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

      Mon, February 18, 2008 - 1:12 PM
      Lebor Gabála Érenn (The Book of the Taking of Ireland) is the Middle Irish title of a loose collection of poems and prose narratives recounting the mythical origins and history of the Irish race from the creation of the world down to the Middle Ages. An important record of the folkloric history of Ireland, it was compiled and edited by an anonymous scholar in the 11th century, and might be described as a mélange of mythology, legend, history, folklore, Christian historiography, politically inspired embellishment and some pure invention. It is usually known in English as The Book of Invasions or The Book of Conquests, and in Modern Irish as Leabhar Gabhála Éireann

      I got that from Wikipedia. It confirms what I read elsewhere as well. When searching for the Book of Invasions it was mentioned more than once to be a fictional history. Could be Christomonk rewriting. Could be based on truth with a bit of embellishment. The Irish are known for a good story. Or it could be absolutely true, though I doubt that, knowing that history is written by the victors. Whatever the truth, it is how we interact with the gods today that really matters.
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Wed, February 20, 2008 - 8:03 AM
    Here is some interesting information that I thought was pertinent to this discussion:

    EARTH MOTHER

    The Earth mother (surprise, she actually exists in Celtic mythology). It is usually this godess which was, together with the Sky father, parent of all the other gods. This godess appears as a separate godess in some IE pantheons (for instance Gaia in the greek mythology), but also can meld with other female godesses, most often with the female Upper Realm godess. In the Irish mythology is separate Earthmother figure seems to be preserved in the figure of Danu and Tailtiu.

    She was usually also the mother of three godesses associated with rivers or springs which are the female godesses of the Upper, Middle and Lower realm.
    THE GODDESS OF THE LOWER REALM

    The godess of the Lower Realm seems to have had a cowlike nature. It was probably called *Guououinda "White cow" (from IE *guou- + *uind-), *Matrona "Mother" (from IE *mater) or *Mororegni "Great Queen" (from IE *moro- + *regni-) She was also capable of shifting her form to an eel, snake, serpent or wolf, more or less the animal godess. Additionally, she seems to be one of the aspects of the "godess of sovereignity". Her Gaulish names seem to have been S(t)irona "Heifer", Damona "Cow", but also Brigantia "the High, the exalted pure one", Rigana "the Queen", Matrona "mother", but also Sequana "the Flowing" and Bovinda "white Cow". Her Irish equivalents are for instance Boand (the Irish form of Bovinda), Brigit (equivalent of Brigantia) and Mo/rri/gan (the Irish version of Rigana). Her Welsh equivalent is Mordron (the mother).

    Through intercourse with the skyfather this godess begets a god named "son", who later marries his aunt, the goddess of the middle realm. This son is the Gaulish *Maponos "Son", in Welsh this is his cognate *Mabon "Son", and, as expected, Boand is the mother of the Irish Mac ind O/c "young Son". This god seems to be assoviated with fire.
    THE GODDESS OF THE MIDDLE REALM

    The godess of the middle Realm apparently had the byname *Medhua "Intoxicatress" (from IE *medhu-). She seems to appear human in form, and definitly is also part of the "godess of sovereignity". Her Gaulish name probably was *Meduana "Intoxicatress" or *Comedova (same meaning), and possibly also *Aveda "the flowing (Water)" Her Irish form is known as Medb or Aife (one of Mebd's bynames).

    This goddess also has a son with the skyfather, called *nepots "Nephew" (alternatives *Nepotulos, *Neptionos) or *Nebhtunos "God of Waters", or Irish Nechtain-Freach (the son of Medb), who later marries his Aunt, the Lower Realm godess (as Nechtain does with Boand). This god seems to be associated with water.
    THE GODDESS OF THE UPPER REALM

    This godess is usually depicted as a horse. Her Gaulish name is Epona "Horse Godess" (from IE *ekuo-na), but she has as her bynames also the names *Rigana "Queen" (See also above for the Lower Realm godess) and possibly some others like ?Catona? "Battle Godess" and ?Imona? "Swift One". Her Irish equivalent is Macha (which is also called Rigana "Queen"and Roech "Great Horse", essentially a cognate of Epona). The byname ?Imona? of Epona could also explain the name Emain Macha, as ?Imona? is cognate with Emain (from *Imonis). Her Welsh equivalent is Rhiannon "Queen" (from *Riganona).

    The name Macha may also indicate that here we have a melding of the Earth godess with the Upper Realm godess (see Latin *Maia "the Great, the Mother but also Sanskrit *Mahi "the Earth").

    This godess as well is part of the "Godess of Sovereignity".
    A FEW THOUGHTS ON THE "GODDESS OF SOVEREIGNITY"

    As we have seen above, all those four godesses are very interwoven in their functions. In fact, it is questionable if they are to be considered as separate godesses at all, or if they are not all only aspects of the Earth Mother/Godess of Sovereignity complex. Simply said, this is not decideable at the moment. It is also possible that due to the very scarce evidence and a constant intermixture, these godesses became, even though separate godesses, mixed to a certain extent by the Celts themselves.

    Here is the link if you'd like to read the entire article:

    draeconin.com/database/celtreli.htm


    Kenneth
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Wed, February 20, 2008 - 9:46 AM
    And...

    THE GODDESS OF WAR

    Well known as a triplicate godess from Irish mythology in the forms of Mo/rri/gan "Great Queen", Nemain "Battle Frenzy" and Babd "Crow". These three godesses are also refered to as the tres Mo/rri/gna "The three Great Queens", therefore the Mo/rri/gan may not be identical with the Lower Realm godess, but also these might be three other aspects of the tripartite godess/three godesses that are responsible for the respective realms. The three battle godesses can shift into the form of a raven.

    At least the Babd, who is also referred to as Babd catha "Battlecrow", also in this form has a cognate in Gaulish gods names in [C]athubodva.


    Kenneth
  • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

    Mon, March 10, 2008 - 11:20 AM
    This is a topic that I, and I believe all, scholars of Celtic cultures have struggled with - assuming we take our subject seriously: what is the Celtic understanding of Deity? SO much of the common modern view of divinity comes from either Christianity (one single transcendant and loving deity with a deep concern for our spiritual development) or Greco-Roman religion (a set of self-aware, at least semi-tutelary, but discrete deities with agenda determined by associative characteristics that can and often conflict with one another) that it is very difficult to navigate the areas where these might overlap or disagree with an independant Celtic understanding of the divine.

    I came across the sociological theory of religion researching Indo-European reflexes of Macha and her twins last year and it has gone a long way to help me develop a structure through which I think I've been able to tease out some conclusions.

    This theory states that any divinity particular to a given culture is a manifestation of the social bond within that culture. The article was specifically targeting common IE terminology for the sacred, elucidating three categories of holiness or sanctity common to all IE cultures. These are 1) the sacred or taboo - that which is holy and thus off limits to those in the mundane world but possibly accessed by the initiated - 2) the holy or august - that is, filled with divine power as in a great hero, the peculiar form of divinity found in Roman Emperors, Christian saints, or magical items - 3) the sanctified - those things of the mundane world placed in special relationship with the divine through ritual i.e. sacrifice and other religious observances like fasting, dedicatory ceremonies etc.

    I think it is thus a misconception to see all Celtic deities as manifestations of a single divine god(dess)-head, but rather that different god(desse)s are different manifestations of those bonds. This is not to rob them of their individual, autonomous nature (the fact of which does not depend on how we think about them), but gives us a useful way to differentiate them from the deities of other cultures.

    I have seen basically three kinds of Celtic deities: 1) those of place (Boand, Danu, Arduinna, Sequanna etc.) and by this I mean the divinity of a specific thing like a river, mountain, grove or lake, 2) those of natural processes (Taranis, Dagda, and - in my opinion - Esus, the Bodb/Nemain, and the Fomorians, but I know many would argue my inclusion of them in this category) and 3) those of attributes or tutelage (Lugh, Gobhann, Dian Cecht, Ogmios etc.) and by these I mean those that have some specific gift to give to us - see the story about the sons of Lugaid in 'Tales of the Elders of Ireland' (Acallamh na Senorach). Lucan's observation that the Celts revered Teutates, Taranis and Esus I think we can take as more Roman synchretism in that the chief Roman deities of the early period were Quirinus (Terminus - God of boundaries), Jupiter and Mars - way too close to be coincidence.

    If you are interested in the articles I mentioned they are:
    Lutzky, Harriet, "On a Concept Underlying Indo-European Terms for the Sacred," Journal of Indo-European Studies 23 (1995), p. 283.
    York, Michael, "The Divine Twins in the Celtic Pantheon," Journal of Indo-European Studies 21 (1993), p. 83.
    • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

      Mon, March 10, 2008 - 12:20 PM
      Morchu, I think you are exactly right. Hindu deities share the "aspect" variance, which makes understanding difficult for me since I get lost so easily.

      I just want to add this thing that I stumbled across quite accidently, but happily, just this past Friday. I don't know who the author is, don't know if he/she is a "serious", credentialed scholar, but the author has researched the same things that I have and gone down the same mental pathways that I have (well, the author has obviously researched quite a bit more than I and has greater powers of reasoning) and I find the assertions presented to make more sense than anything else I've ever read.

      And, while it doesn't treat the mythological questions we're exploring here, it has added to my understanding of the underlying culture that Celts and Celtic divinities sprang from.

      Here is the link as it's too lengthy to put into a tribe discussion snipet:

      www.enter.net/~torve/trog...ropean1.html


      Kenneth
      • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

        Tue, March 11, 2008 - 11:42 AM
        A facinating site - not without its own assumptions, btu what an interesting author! Have you read his books? I think the thing I appreciated the most was his statement that

        "The more I learn about the past, the more convinced I become that our own world and its history are as strange and magical as anything to be found in fantasy or science fiction."

        Truer words were never written ...
        • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

          Wed, March 12, 2008 - 11:19 AM
          Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.

          I try to refer people to research or writing that I believe to be either the current most accepted or that, even if it is controversial or without enough supporting evidence, which makes most sense to me (that is, if the authors of such works are cabable enough of conveying their thinking so my little pea brain can understand). I also try to make folks aware that I know the stuff I'm referring them to may not be the dominant, most well-supported.

          Anyway, for the same reason you mentioned, as well as, many others, this author's thinking just really made sense to me on a really surprisingly deep level.

          By the way, reading books of fiction by someone like Jean Auel will sometimes strike me the same way :)


          Kenneth
          • Re: Denoting Celtic Deism?

            Thu, March 13, 2008 - 10:27 PM
            I've never read her stuff. I started 'Clan of the Cave Bear' back when the movie came out, but never got cuaght up in it. I gues my taste in fiction was always more out there ... more E.A. Poe / Peter S. Beagle / you know - mythopoeia.