Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

topic posted Tue, May 6, 2008 - 2:27 PM by  Morchú
Ta2 JoYnT's thread 'What exactly is a ...?' has gotten me thinking about this question and I would like to open for discussion some ideas that have occurred to me.

First, his statement that 'pagan' is an uncomfortably Christian term raises some of my own issues with our common developing understanding of what constitutes alternative spirituality founded in and informed by Celtic pre-Christian culture. Both 'Celtic' and 'Pagan' have certain resonances and my experience has been that these terms are deployed more as a means of sparking a resonant connotation than citing a donotative definition.

In other words, 'Celtic Paganism' doesn't mean that those who practice this kind of alternative spirituality - whatever that may be since one of Paganism's strengths is its endless and celebratory diversity - ARE Celts according to the hostorical definition of these terms, practicing the rites observed prior to the conversion period. Instead, 'Celtic Pagan' evokes a whole package of associations that are interpreted in endless ways, some of which are not rooted in historical but literary reality. In such a complex and ever-shifting lexical arena, the term Celtic Pagan is free from the constraints of historicity - constraints the Celtic Reconstructionists are currently wrestling with - to explore all the myriad meanings and implications of the term 'Celtic'. It's very exciting!

Of course the term 'pagan' has its coinage in the Christian past, but that is precisely the point. Now the term specifies a point of view deliberately outside of the modern Judeo-Christian (even Islamic) paradigm, emerging from a period when that paradigm was seemingly ubiquitous. The term Pagan originally came to mean non-Christian by connotation, since only those living in the countryside (the very meaning of 'paganus') continued to follow the older tradition (agricultural communities always tend to be resistant to such cultural changes, and Christianity was, at first, an urban phenomenon). Now that association with ruralism ties its modern alternative spiritualities to the land through a conscious promotion of 'green religion' - as it were.

I offer these thoughts in order to see what you, our immediate community, thinks. My own Celtic Paganism is still budding and ever-changing. I would thus be very grateful for any words anyone may offer.
posted by:
Morchú
Canada
  • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

    Tue, May 6, 2008 - 3:00 PM
    Morchu...yer a very deep dude !
    You really seem to know your history...wow!
    On my Facebook profile page....there's a section in my personal information area called...Religon .
    My answer in that section is as follows...." Organized religon's can kiss my Celtic ass "
    I'm an artist and have devoted my whole life to it and I do love history , although my education levels into how you speak leave me scratching my head...I do get the jist of what your saying however ...I'm really limited in my Celt history ..for the most part ..an overview !
    I have a limited knowledge if any of the spirtuality and all the mythos and gods of the Celts...actually ..don't know any !
    Whenever I've heard the word " pagan " what I get I guess is an early form of Christian propaganda meaning...non-believer !
    I think being Celtic is just that....Celtic !
    I have a hard time with the " pagan " part, as it seems to lose alot in the translation into organized religon speak!
    • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

      Tue, May 6, 2008 - 4:15 PM
      That loss of translation is precisely what I was trying to address. 'Pagan' as a term I think has left behind that old Christian definition that considered pagans to be followers of the wrong spiritual path, as opposed to good, upstanding orthodox Christians. Now, 'pagan' means a host of other things determined more often than not by those who choose to apply the term to themselves.

      This isn't to advance 'pagan' as a term anyone should adopt. Its strength is in the fact that it is only adopted by those to whom it speaks. It clearly doesn't to you. I am with you in the urge to leave behind any sort of constraining terminology, but I think 'pagan' as a term has taken on a kind of lexical chameleon-like quality, which allows for a breadth of application that would make most dictionary-writers sweat blood. One freind of mine even describes herself as an Episcopagan - a word that fills me with perplexed consternation. Ultimately, though, I think that this kind of chaotic diversity is beneficial - and in some ways quite Celtic (though I think some may try to take my head over it).

      Ultimately, we're all finding our own path.
    • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

      Tue, May 6, 2008 - 4:19 PM
      And thank you very much for the compliment!

      Go raibh mile maith agat agus mo sheacht mbeannacht ort-sa.
      • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

        Fri, May 9, 2008 - 12:02 PM
        I agree with your posting. And of course it is up to the individual as to what they feel comfortable with using. One of the reasons I like using 'Pagan' as a description is that a) it stands for the old pre-christian religions and b) it, as Morchu stated, stands for a diversity of beliefs (from Gardenian to Asatru to Stregra to Celt to ecletic). It is an umbrella of sorts for a wide range of beliefs of which there is, in most of my associations, an acceptance of this diversity of beliefs.

        Blessings
        • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

          Fri, May 9, 2008 - 11:40 PM
          ""I think 'pagan' as a term has taken on a kind of lexical chameleon-like quality, which allows for a breadth of application that would make most dictionary-writers sweat blood. One friend of mine even describes herself as an Episcopagan - a word that fills me with perplexed consternation.""

          How about "Christian Witch?" My Pagan friends used to apply that to me.... often.

          It's a weird term but I prefer it to 'witch' because it doesn't nullify any strong meaning. There are still many cultures (western & non) that deem 'witch' to be highly specific. I like 'pagan' because it's a good shorthand. you can call me a "Crypto-Catholic-Shakeristic Pagan" if you like.


          www.SilverSunbeam.etsy.com
          • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

            Sun, May 11, 2008 - 12:03 PM
            I think of myself as a pagan rather than a witch. My 1934 Websters Dictionary defines pagan as "a peasant or countryman (from pagus - of the country). then it lists "a heathen, idolater, one who follows false gods". Witch is defined as "of wicca. a magician, a wizard, one who practices the black art, someone who has made a pact with the devil". Too many people still think in these terms when they hear "witch".

            "One friend of mine even describes herself as an Episcopagan" - interesting concept. I was raised in the Episcopal Church, walked away when I was 9 and never looked back.
            • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

              Sun, May 11, 2008 - 1:06 PM
              I'm kinda start'n to like the term " Druid " !
              • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

                Tue, May 13, 2008 - 11:28 AM
                I really like the term Druid as well - for reasons I don't think even I fully understand yet (certainly its just as vexed as 'pagan').

                ... Crypto-Catholic- .... wow! ... the possibilities are staggering ... but what do >you< mean by it, April?

                And Anita, I spent some sixteen years or so in the Episcopal church and have likewise turned away from it. I think my friend was thinking of C.S. Lewis' idea of Episcopalianism, where there is still a dionysian facet of Christianity - it's just mostly out of reach of most people who aren't built for that kind of thing. I think there was some ecstatic dancing invovled ....
                • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

                  Tue, May 13, 2008 - 12:17 PM
                  "I really like the term Druid as well - for reasons I don't think even I fully understand yet (certainly its just as vexed as 'pagan')."

                  Me too, though I suspect that's obvious by now:-)

                  Have you ever read The Flaming Door by Eleanor C. Merry? I've literally just started it and it's interesting on many levels. First, she is not an academic. She comes from a Steiner/Anthroposophical background ...a paradigm I quite like until they start to cross-pollinate and then I have an instinctive aversion to applying the anthroposophical filter to other world-views... I don't know why... but the awareness of that fact is honing my critical thinking in the reading. She is passionate and the ancient stories clearly speak directly to her. Her main thrust is that the legends contain the story of initiation, access to the spiritual realm through the Flaming Door. She does place a lot of emphasis in the continuation of the celtic traditions through the early celtic church.

                  Can't tell you much more as, as I've said, I've only just started it, but it looks to be both challenging and interesting.

                  Adam
  • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

    Tue, May 13, 2008 - 10:46 PM
    I prefer to think of Christianity as the 'alternative' religion, since we were 'pagan' well before any jesus christ came along.
    • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

      Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:49 PM
      All these terms are relative. 'Alternative' simply denotes something that is not something else, its implication in our modern language being something other than the 'mainstream'. I am sure that Christianity will be truly alternative in the future, if it is not already, with pagan religions on the rise and once religions like Buddhism and Islam are taken into account. I think the modern term 'alternative spirituality/religion' was first coined to indicate something outside the major, accepted paths (the Big Three book-religions, Buddhism etc.) and only had something to do with Christianity by association.

      It's almost like 'alternative' carries some sort of 'second-place' connotation. Is this everyone else's impression, or am I misguided.
    • Jim
      Jim
      offline 2

      Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

      Wed, May 14, 2008 - 10:29 PM
      All these various terms have always confused me just a bit.

      How do you really be a pagan while living in the city ? Or a Celt or Druid, while not a part of Celt or Druid life and culture ?

      For me, my answer has been, you can't. Once you leave the the daily living of a thing, you begin to become less the thing every day. And your children even less. And your grandchildren not at all. ...Until all that is really left is possibly attendance at an occasional Solstice gathering. Or, even less than that, all that is left are just the words.

      For me, to be a Christian, or Celt, or Pagan, or etc. is to live and breathe it every day. To do less, is to be a "practicing" ...pagan, or etc.
      And the just practicing is not really the living, is it ?

      So for me, I just call myself an Earth Walker.

      I walk with my feet on the ground, mindfull of the bending of the grass as I step on their families. ...And I give Thanks for their support. I walk in sun shine and by star light, in rythmn with cycles, not needing, nor owning, a watch. I never have need of sickness, why would I with Nature my home. But if I might rarely experience a bit of discomfort, maybe from a bee I disturbed, I pick an herb. Never the first I find, because the first may also be the last, but the second or third, whoever speaks to me as helper. I watch the swallows and bats and other wingeds, and often they tell me of approach of someone at distance. The goats, and cattle, and turkeys gather around me, as I walk their fields. And Water I drink, the best food of all.

      This I do every day, and more.
      Not as Pagan or any other practice.
      Just simply as...
      Earth Walker.
      • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

        Fri, May 16, 2008 - 7:28 AM
        If you believe that then you are misguided...'Earth Walker'
        • Jim
          Jim
          offline 2

          Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

          Fri, May 16, 2008 - 10:33 PM
          Sir:

          Care to explain ?
          • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

            Fri, May 16, 2008 - 11:32 PM
            Hmmm.......do I really wanna see these two high-handed absolutists go mano-a-mano? (Or, perhaps that would be 'ego-a-ego'.)

            Naaaah.

            (tiptoes away quietly....)
            • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

              Sat, May 17, 2008 - 8:41 AM
              lol...

              Some of what Jim says makes sense. It's the living everyday part that defines a spirituality. Unlike religion, spirituality is something we have 24/7. Not one day a week, like some religions, or one day every six weeks, and one day a month, like some other religions.

              I am a Witch every day. And every day live as a Witch.

              As far as seeing absolutists go 'ego-a-ego', as long as they can keep it civil, it should be interesting. :)
              • Jim
                Jim
                offline 2

                Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

                Sat, May 17, 2008 - 9:17 PM
                How do you get "ego or absolutism" out of a simple question ?

                "Sir" wrote that I was "misguided". All I asked of "Sir" was , please explain. If he thinks I, or anybody else, is wrong about something, then I believe it would be nice if he, (or anybody else who would make such a statement), would explain just what he meant. To post such a cryptic remark is not the least bit helpful to anybody. ...At least, certainly not to me.

                I'll say it again. Sir, please tell me how I was "misguided". If I am wrong, show me the way. Inform me of my error. For me, believing that declaring oneself a Druid, while living completely out of context, time, culture, language, daily thought process, method of making a living or life style of an actual Druid, is a bit like calling yourself a 12th Cent. goat if you are really a 21st Cent. poodle. ...I'm not saying that it "absolutely" can't be done. But I would guess it could only really happen extremely rarely. (Isn't Paris Hilton really the Archbishops love child ?)

                Of course the whole problem, if indeed a problem exists, could be easily solved if "today's druid's" would just call themselves, neo-druids.

                .......Look, I actually don't really care. If people want to call themselves something they can not ever actually be, (short of a complete melt down of this society, and a "return to the old ways"), then do it. But, in my dreams and fantasies, I sometimes imagine what would happen if a true Viking were to meet a modern boy calling himself a Viking. (Or whatever other comparison you wish to make.) Would the guy who is a Viking, and proud of it, like some modern nancy boy calling himself a Viking...and say, lets go have a beer ? Or would a Viking say to the pretender, I would like you to meet my friend, Sword ?

                And wouldn't it be fun to watch.
                • Re: Rejoinder to 'What exactly is a ...'

                  Sun, May 18, 2008 - 2:31 AM
                  and yet, in the words of those bards, "you know sometimes words have two meanings"...

                  If a Druid from pre roman conquest and I met, then yes, we might have some disagreements about divination and entrails and the sacrific/ritual homicide of prisoners and criminals, at the very least.

                  Thing is, there has been a neo-druid movement (I'll call it a movement in order to allow for the numerous forms it has taken) in existence for a couple of hundred years now, within which certain individuals have carried the title druid... it may not mean what it meant over 2000 years ago, but your dislike isn't going to change it, and hey, a couple of years nearly qualifies as a tradition in its own rite (sic) ;-)

                  I call myself a bard... not a druid in any other sense than I belong to and work within a druid movement... Do you have the same objection to the word bard?

                  Adam

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