Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

topic posted Tue, November 15, 2005 - 2:32 AM by  Unsubscribed
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The following is by no means an indictment of the religion called Wicca. Wicca is indeed a valid and powerful path for those who truthfully walk it and understand it. However, there is a body of people who believe that Wicca is the descendant of the religious ways of the Gaelic or other Celtic peoples (or 'Celts' as a general nomenclature). This simply is not the case.

The following is a brief comparison of the Wiccan religion and Celtic religion. The purpose of this exercise is to dispel the notion that Wicca is Celtic, or derived from Celtic religion. It is by no means to be taken as an in depth survey of either religion. There are a great many questions that could be answered for people if they would visit with the elderly people in the rural areas of the Old Countries, or at least read books written by solid academians instead of profit oriented, new age writers. We will place at the end of this article the sources that can be used to substantiate what is said herein. I encourage you to investigate each source given, to check the veracity of the statement for yourselves.

When we talk about Celtic religion, we must define what we are talking about. Precisely put, we are talking about religious beliefs, practices and worldviews that existed in Gaelic and other Celtic cultures, as these developed as natural manifestations within the cultures. While this would include Celtic Christianity, for this article we are addressing Classical (pagan) Celtic theology. The pagan methodology and understandings of Gaelic spirituality survived the coming of Christianity and have continued to this day within the ways of people who are by and large nominally Christian. This is however, where Gaelic Traditionalists, both pagan and Christian, look when establishing their beliefs and methodologies.

An example of what existed in Classical times, when compared with what began afterward, is the use of the Maypole. Prior to importation by Germanic invaders, the Maypole was not in use in Gaelic lands. The High Days, which were fire festivals, saw people gather at the local river to make votive (in an anthropological sense) offerings, as well as light bonfires on the hilltops. It wasn't until the coming of the Saxon that the Maypole came to Gaelic lands, and even then the use of the Maypole stayed in the areas where there was a Germanic population, and was not adopted by the indigenous Gaels.

The spirituality of the various Celtic peoples has not changed. The Gaelic peoples still recognize that there are spirits of the Sky, the Sea and the Land (X). It is only in their official methodologies concerning the Upper Realm that concepts and methodologies have changed. The Three of Power can still be found in prayers and incantations such as recorded by Alexander Carmichael at the early part of the 20th century. Yet there are a great many who claim that things that have never been a part of the Celtic paradigm are Celtic. Wicca seems to be a religion that is particularly prone to this. The people who make the statement that Wicca is Celtic are usually of two sorts. These are the new people who either for their own reasons truly believe this to be the case, or they have fallen prey to some unscrupulous teacher who uses the allure of things "Celtic" to draw in new students or ensure profits. In both cases the problem is exacerbated by the fact that solid information is not easily accessible to the general public. The people who fall for the antics of the unscrupulous teacher usually do not have access to the information it takes to refute the falsehood. All religions have these types, and the fact that these will also exist within Wicca should not serve as a reason to condemn that path.

People who, with utter conviction, state that Wicca is a Celtic path usually have derived this idea by one of two common arguments (taking for granted that they haven't been misinformed). The first is conveyed by the person stating something to the effect of, "... _____ (usually Gardner is named) drew upon Celtic lore when putting it together... ." The second statement used is, "...it just *is* Celtic, it's always been Celtic, it's always been in places like Ireland and Scotland." Both of these arguments are easily disproved. The following shall go toward that end.

Traditional Celtic religions, as is the case with all religions, are cultural manifestations. In tribal cultures the people's spirituality is part of their identity and worldview. Gaelic Traditionalism, for example, holds within the Gaelic culture. This just as a Traditionalist Lakota would remain faithful to their culture.

In the Gaelic experience, though regional variants of the name would exist, the Mother of the Gods is Danu, and her mate is Bile. From that union came Dagda and Bride, who themselves are described in some articles of lore as mates. From texts and folklore we see that the Gods were born of that union. The Gods are the First Ancestors of the people, and are individuals. Scholars have noted that when Celtic culture entered an area, the Celtic gods of the Upper Realm went in with them. These then intermarried with the local goddesses of the land (the goddesses of sovereignty). Extant geneaological texts chart how the ancient Gael believed that they originated with those unions. Hence, the very Gods of the people are their First Ancestors.

The various ideas surrounding the ancestors manifest in a host of customs, such as the Feast of the Dead. Also, such concepts as that of the dead reincarnating through blood lines, in conjunction with the customs of the Gaelic peoples, provide a sense of continuity and identity that cannot be missed.

Just as Traditionalists hold steadfastly to their own culture, Wicca tends to draw from various cultures and ideologies. What allows the practitioners of Wicca to put elements from various religions together is the modernist ideology that has at its root the Jungian concept of archetypes. Wiccans tend to work heavily in the idea of archetypes -- "All goddesses are the face of the Goddess". They focus on the traits which various deities share, much the same way a Jungian would focus on the shared traits of heroes in a Jungian analysis. Wiccans also speak heavily on the subject of masculine and feminine dualities (anima and animus), which are central to Jungian theories of personality. Some Wiccans focus on claiming the shadow side, or "dark" side of individuals, which is a straight lift from Jungian theory.

The concepts that are traditionally part of Celtic religions reject this type of analysis and state that the Gods are individuals. Furthermore, as stated, traditional Celtic beliefs hold that the Gods are tied to the people by familial links. As an example, a Gaelic Traditionalist might agree that your mom and their mom (or your tribe's Mother Goddess and their tribe's Mother Goddess) share some traits by virtue of both people being moms. However, it is a mistake to say that just because both people are moms, that they are interchangeable. To the perspective of a Gael, the basic fallacy of extending Jungian analysis too far is this - your mom isn't their mom, no matter how mom-like both people are. Needless to say, one can't hold an archetype relationship to either the God or the Goddess and a direct and intimate personal relationship to your people's gods at the same time. The two ideas contradict each other.

Another of the signs telling of the Jungian foundation in Wicca is the propensity to constantly 'borrow' concepts, icons and sacred relics from other cultures and their religions. This causes a great deal of friction to exist between people of other cultures and Wiccans. This friction manifests itself in such passive things as traditional peoples separating themselves and establishing communities aside from the general pagan one. It also manifests in such things as the literal Lakota Declaration of War against those who "steal" (words the spiritual leaders of that People used) that culture's spirituality. The unanimous opinion of the people in the various traditional forms of spirituality is that Wicca and Wiccans spend too much time "borrowing" everything under the sun and throwing it all together. Yet, to be fair, from Wicca's archetypal-based viewpoint, that's both okay and logical.

From a traditional Gaelic viewpoint, and traditionalists of other cultures say the same things, these practices dishonor the ancestors, distort the fundamental truth ("your mom ain't my mom"), and interfere with the duty that traditional people generally feel to preserve and restore traditional cultures. This is because, to them, Wicca creates a distraction that sidetracks people looking for the traditional ways, as well as sucks up the time, interest and energy of people who might otherwise be helping to find ways to preserve their culture. Wiccans also often present themselves as the "true" Celtic religion, thus preventing some people from ever finding their way back to the path of the ancestors, which would, in the view of a traditional person, honor the gods properly (meaning, as individuals and as the 'First Ancestors'). What most traditionalists find deplorable is that many Wiccans embrace the misinformation regardless of fact and refuse to deal with conflicting ideas or views when faced with facts.

Having established the Jungian foundation that allows for misinformation to remain unchecked in the Wiccan community, let's start dispelling some of the fallacious notions that exist. The first notion to be addressed is, 'Wicca is what the Celts of old practiced.' Toward dispelling this idea, let's state some things that are fairly well established as fact because of the preponderance of evidence.

The first is that modern neo-paganism is highly impacted by, and reflective of, Gardnerian Wicca and its derivatives. The second is that, when Gardner was putting his creation together he drew upon Eastern philosophies, Egyptian ideologies and Judaic ceremonialism, in addition to Celtic lore.

This easily becomes confusing, but when something is made up of components, the whole mechanism is not solely of any one of those components. To state such denotes a severely faulty argument. Let me demonstrate this. For a great many years American Motors Corporation (AMC) put out a whole line of automobiles. These automobiles very often had Chrysler engines, Ford transmissions, Chrysler brakes, Ford seats and, I believe in one instance, even General Motors instrumentation. All of those components, motors, transmissions, seats, etc, were fixed into a body made by AMC. Yet the complete car wasn't a Ford because it had a Ford engine, nor was it a Chrysler because it had their transmission. It was an AMC, a creature all its own. The same is true about Wicca. It has a Hindu engine, an Egyptian torque converter and a Celtic transmission. These things were set in a ceremonial body that, while reflective of the bodies used by the Hermetic Orders, is Wiccan alone. It is a creature unto itself.

Concerning the second argument they use, I direct your attention at two areas. These two areas will suffice nicely in dispelling the false notion that Wicca just *IS* Celtic. The first area is the theology of the two systems.

The two systems, Wicca and Celtic, and in particular Gaelic, contradict each other on several points. These contradictions are enough, as a whole, to form a severe dissonance between the two religions. In Celtic religion, there are three basic spheres. These are the Sky, the Sea and the Land. Each of these has a ruling body. For the Sky, the Sun, for the Sea, the Moon and for the Land, the Earth.

By careful study of the ancient texts, as well as the language itself, we see that the Sun and the Moon are feminine. They are sisters to each other. Though, in some lore, there are traces of evidence that some people believed that, while the Sun was feminine, the Moon was masculine. In Gaidhlig the names of both luminaries are feminine, and in invocations and spells they are both addressed as feminine beings. Yet they can change gender according to which of their attributes is brought to the fore. The nurturing, warm Sun who promotes growth is feminine, the light, as personified by Lugh, is masculine, and the scorching Sun just before Harvest is represented by Balor. This contrasts sharply with Wicca, which is based wholly on a Feminine Moon and Masculine Sun.

Wicca is a religion whose philosophical foundation is Neo-Platonic dualism with a Goddess and a God as archetypes. Not only is Celtic religion vastly different in that it is truly polytheistic, totemistic, animistic, and zoomorphic, but the very processes of reason upon which the whole of the Celtic worldview is based is founded on a tripartite cosmology. In Celtic understanding the world has three independent and free spheres, Sky, Land and Sea. The three realms are both the legs of the cauldron of the world, as well as the three parts of the Tree of the World.

The next area of difference regards ethics. The basic ethical statement of Wicca is called 'the Rede.' The Wiccan rede states, "An It Harm None, Do As Ye Wilt." The nature of the Rede is untenable to Celts. The whole morality of Wicca is "harm none". While it is a theoretical statement, it is one with little real life practice. This is because it's a rule that must be broken just to survive and, as a result, leaves interpretation and application to individuals, and common sense, isn't.

Such statements as are typical of the Rede are not a part of the Celtic paradigm, in which we find a heroic morality. In real life, the term "harm none" is typified by the moralities of Wicca, Christianity, and others where the primary imperative is to not hurt others. Heroic is typified by the Celtic and Norse religions primarily, though other examples exist. Heroic morality is summed up by the Gaelic hero Caelte as, "truth in our hearts, strength in our arms and fulfillment in our tongues". Heroic morality is rooted in concepts of personal honor, responsibility and fulfillment of duty. These are all traits of the Heroic morality, but like the Tao, it is an intangible concept that cannot truly be adequately defined.

Because Wicca and traditional Gaelic spirituality arise out of different analytical perspectives, their moralities -- the "scripts" they create for their adherents -- are radically different. Wicca is a religion that is based on a logical extension of Jungian analysis (and yes, Jung was big into religion) -- thus its sole ethic "Harm none and do what thou wilt" tends to reflect a personal, individualistic practice. Traditionalist Celts living a "heroic" morality focus on heroism, personal honor, tribal honor and duty to the tribe and "Do what you wilt" is the last thing on their mind. That which honor and duty call for is at the opposite end of the spectrum from that which the individualistic bent of Wicca would call.

The vision conceived and portrayed by Wicca, of what comes after this life, is limited and vague. Celtic religion, on the other hand, has a complex and intricate conceptualization of the otherworld. In fact, OtherWorld's interaction in this world is, in many ways, the pivot point of Celtic religion.

Wicca is primarily an invocatory/ecstatic religion that revolves around special rituals. The 'formularies' used by Wicca can be traced back through the lodges of ceremonial magic, and especially the work of Alister Crowley. In Celtic religion, the tenets are votive in nature and stress ethics and morality, only secondary importance is placed on ritual. To Celts, life itself is ceremony, with every thought, word and deed being spiritually significant and magical.

The very foundation of Gaelic culture was the home. The hearth was the cornerstone of the spirituality of the people. In Gaelic religions great emphasis is placed on the sanctity of the home, and strength of the family. Families, to traditional Celtic peoples, include people who have adopted each other. The individuals are encouraged to walk in strength and to fulfill their responsibilities to their families. These components are not found in Wicca.

In Wicca, sacred space is ritually 'created.' To traditional Celtic sensibilities, both blessing the salt and not blessing the salt are superfluous arguments. This is because, to the Celtic mind, humankind can make neither the Gods, nor Their creations, any more or less perfect.

In traditionally based Celtic religions all space is sacred. The Land is the Goddess of Sovereignty, the Mother of the peoples living there, and holy unto Herself. Sacred space is omnipresent, it is the history of a place or some other distinguishing thing that causes certain places to see different religious uses. What is done at a site depends on the natural predisposition of an area or its history. That the ancestors saw things in this way is established through such literary evidence as the Dindsenchas (a book of place histories).

Related to the concepts of the land is that, the Gods that Celts took with them into a new land (Sky Gods/Gods of the People), mated with the Land Gods already in that land. Out of those unions came the oldest Gaelic families, out of which came later Gaelic families. What this means is that the Celts saw the Gods as their relatives. Hence we see one of several manifestations of ancestor veneration. Wicca has no component for venerating or developing a relationship with the ancestors, or the Goddess of the land or other land spirits of the lands in which a people live. These are big items in traditional Celtic religions.

Wicca is an initiatory mystery religion. Gaelic and other traditional Celtic religions are inclusive, with very few initiatory elements. Within Wicca there are various degrees and levels, each having its own mystery, each mystery being revealed by someone in authority. While the scope of this article is not designed to explore religious functionaries in pre-Christian Celtic cultures, in Celtic religion, the declarations of the Gods are found in the Order of Nature. The revelations are from the Gods themselves, and in general, each person with sincerity seeks to understand the natural world (which includes the "supernatural" world) around them and their place in it. There is also the concept of interacting with the natural world as co-inhabitors of the world.

As briefly touched on earlier, Wicca uses the classical elements as a fundamental concept. Celtic religions traditionally do not use the classical elements (air, fire, water and earth) in any way. Some point to the inclusions of the four mythical cities of the Tuatha De Danaan, as recounted in the Lebhar Gebhala Erenn as proof of, or a model of, the use of the elements of the later Greek elements. These folk attribute the four treasures that came from those cities as symbols for those elements. However, scholars tend to think that these may have been included as they were by Christian monks to bring things more into line with the Roman concepts as typified by the Roman Vulgate.

Some will argue that the floor plans of sacred sites support the concept of the use of directions in conjunction with the four elements. First, such associations would be speculation only. Secondly, these floor plans are of the square temples that are found primarily on the continent. This floor plan was carried over to the isles with the Romans, and is found as a part of Romano-Celtic culture. The majority of insular temples were round. Typical of this genre is the important ritual structure at Emain Macha. Archaeological diggings has shown that the site was based on five concentric rings (perhaps associated with the same five circles placed around a newborn) of oak posts, with an opening to the west. Circular sites aren't plagued with such concerns as which side faces which direction. Indeed, the sitting arrangement of the five kings at Tara, indicate an association with the directions, but these need to be addressed within the framework of the culture. This framework would be winds, or 'airts', not the four Greek elements. The airts are still to this day what are associated with the directions, as shown by some of the incantations recorded in the Highlands by Carmichael. The Greek elements were only associated with the Four Treasures in the late 1800's, by the work of the Golden Dawn, of which Yeats was a member.

If we want to address the Four Treasures, we must recognize exactly what is being stated in the texts. Of those treasures, one was the Sword of Nuada and the other the Spear of Lugh. Lugh did not come with the Tuatha De Danann when They came into Ireland. Lugh showed up later on, just prior to the second battle of Maig Tuired. According to the lore, Lugh's Spear was forged by Goibiu. In that battle Nuadh was killed, and it was after the battle that Lugh took the kingship. Hence, by seeing that Nuadh was gone, and Lugh ascended, Nuadh's solar symbol (the sword) was replaced by Lugh's solar symbol (the spear). This helps us to see that the significant number involved is 'three'.

Also as stated, in Celtic culture there are the basic spheres of Sky, Sea and Land. These three realms are three parts of the cosmology of most Indo-European peoples, and are not the equivalents of "earth, wind, fire and water" of the Hellenistic Greek world that has filtered down to the modern era through the ceremonial magical lodges.

The Sky, which is related to Fire, is the realm of the gods of culture, light/enlightenment, order, permanence, purity, and the skills (The Tuatha De Danann). The Sea, which is the realm of the watery Underworld, is associated with chaos, decay, and death through which comes renewal and rebirth (the Fomorri). Regarding water proper, it is through the sacred wells (direct conduits to OtherWorld), from the Waters of Heaven (which maintains during the rule of the truthful king), that the water which encircles the Earth, sustains and maintains the people of the Land. It is here on the Land where humans physically exist, living in contention on the 'plain of sorrow', caught betwixt the above and the below.

The closest thing to an elemental system amongst the Gaelic Celts is what are called the dhuile, as such is defined as 'elements' in Gaidhlig. These are anywhere from seven to eleven, usually nine, items. These range from sun to lightning to rock. The dhuile are a way of understanding the relationship of the person to the cosmos, with each item found in the cosmos relating to a part of the person. Wicca has nothing along these lines. In addition, the fertility nature of Wicca addresses the land Gods almost exclusively. When Gods of the other realms are named, they are usually outside of the place held for them in their traditional pantheons. In Celtic theology, each is held and venerated in their traditional capacity. As far as the directions are concerned, the overwhelming evidence shows that in traditional celtic religion, the directions have always been associated with the winds. Not only is evidence found in texts which record folklore and custom, such as the Carmina Gadelica, but also in texts far more ancient such as the Senchus Mor, the Saltair Na Ran, and the Hibernica Minora. (X)

Wicca places little emphasis on mythology. Yet in Celtic religion, mythological stories are a central feature. These, in fact, form the core of magical practice, teaching and what ritual exists (manifested commonly in 'passion plays'). In Wicca there is no clear teaching of what is required to break past the cycles of rebirth. In fact, within Wicca there is no such concept at all. Yet in Celtic religion, the requirement can be clearly and concisely stated. To fulfill one's duty, to always be honorable and to stand for the truth come what may, while understanding *why* what is honorable is considered so. Students of Aristotle can clearly see the concepts of "personal excellence" within materials from various celtic cultures.

Wicca is a relatively recent addition to the religious paths of humanity. There is a lot of mis-information bandied about regarding it. It is sad that a great many of its followers have to do the religion such a disservice by claiming a lineage that doesn't exist. I would point out the now tired joke about Wiccan grand mums. Celts tend to discount initiation, or any other device through which validity is gained through some person or agency. To a Celt, that one exists is proof of their validity. The only generally recognized 'initiations' are those afforded by the process of life itself, with the two most important being birth and death, with marriage, parenthood and grand-parenthood coming along in a close second place.

Some well known writers have claimed a great antiquity for Wicca. Yet, if it has any age to it at all, then it is through the Wicce, which were Saxon in origin, and patriarchal from the start. These are thought to have been members of the Lodges of Cunning Men. They have nothing to do with the mythological Druids (a product of the British Revival effort of the 18th century). The Wicce have even less to do with the historical Draoi. Such histories, as have connected the two groups of people, are in fact pseudo-histories, or as Margot Adler calls such ideas in her book, Drawing Down The Moon, "myths".

These same writers state that the word Wicca derives from the Saxon word, Witan. However, the Witan was the proto-parliament of old Saxon England. If one wishes to twist etymology in this way, it would be more correct to trace the word witch, back to the word 'wicga', which is Old English for the insect known as the earwig, and which literally means "creepy-crawly".

These same writers state that Wicca was practiced in the Celtic lands, and specifically name Gaelic lands, where these practices were supposedly called "Witta". Yet, from the Gaelic language itself we can see the truth that Wicca is not descended from the Gaelic Celts. The simplicity of this fact is seen in that that there isn't even a 'W ' in the Gaelic language, so neither Wicca nor Witta as a derivation could be Gaelic. As concerns the Gaelic language, the sound [w] does exist in Gaelic, or at least in Old Irish, as a lenited /m/ or /b/, like the [w] in the current pronunciation of Samhain [sawhIn - that's a capital I]. But that never occurs at the beginning of a word. Even in Gaidhlig (Scots Gaelic) the sound is rather like a "wide mouthed 'V' sound" [as in Samhain - SHA-vin].

In technical speak the 'w' does not exist in the language, nor is [w] ever its own phoneme, just an allophone of /m/ or /b/ (depending on the word). Since lenition is rare at the beginning of a word though, it is extraordinarily unlikely that any native Gaelic word would have a [w] at the beginning, and thus 'Wicca' is practically impossible in Gaelic even transliterated into the Roman alphabet.

Likewise, a similar argument exists to show that Wicca did not descend from the Welsh (the representative of the P-Celt branch of the linguistic family). While the alphabet character 'W' does exist in the Welsh language, it does not express the same sound as the English 'W' (white, wig, Wicca, Witta). Instead, within Welsh language, the 'W' expresses the "oo" sound. Thus, within the Welsh the letter W can be pronounced either as found in the English "put" (short) or "soon" (long); or the Welsh "twp" (short) and "rhwd" (long).

The truth is that modern Wicca, as it is most commonly practiced, is a fairly modern construction, dating from the middle part of this century. This was best summed up by Dr. Marilyn Wells, PhD, Anthropology Department, Middle Tennessee State University, who has referred to modern Wiccans as Neo-Wiccans. In other words, there is little to no connection between Gardner's creation and the Wicce of the middle ages, and no connection to the Celts; except for what modern Wiccans have borrowed and incorporated. As a matter of fact, if the veracity of The Pickengill Papers is complete, as many Gardnerians have vouched, then the Lodges of Saxon Cunning Men stood in the place of adversary to the Celtic Wise Women, which also goes to support this essay.

More evidence supporting this can be found in a body of religious laws called the "Law of the Craft". While there are a great number of groups operating who do not use the set of laws that Gardner wrote, these do, however, usually use some derivation. "The Law of the Craft" as it was created by Gardner, and forwarded by a great many people who received it from their grandmothers (a bit of humor), at the least shows the attitude present in the creators of this religion. The undertones still reverberate. There are printed copies of this body to be found in the public domain, in such books as Lady Sheba's Grimoire and The King of the Witches by June Johns. There is also to be found on the Internet, a work comparing several versions of that body of law. There are three items of note, where that law is concerned. They are:

#1 The uniform appellation given to modern Wicca, as a "brotherhood."
#2 The quote,"... as a man loveth a woman by mastering her...".
#3 The quote,"...let her(the high priestess)ever mind that all power is lent...from him(the priest)..." (Her power is absolute in Circle only, and even then lent from the Him [the priest figure])

-parentheses added by author-

All three of these items fly in the face of how women were viewed by pre-Roman Gaelic people. Even the Wiccan law demanding that mature, experienced priestesses step aside for someone younger, soley because of youth, should raise questions as to the motives of the author of these laws. It should also raise questions about their foundation in tradition. The fact is, our ancestor's views towards women were quite progressive for the times, and were close to being on par with modern views. Much to the chagrin of other powers of the time, namely the Romans, women had the right to possess and disburse property. They possessed the right to inheritance, and to chose their mates. They possessed ascendancy to the throne, in some places, above the right of men to do so. They possessed the right to keep and bear weapons, and let it be noted that subjagating an armed populace is indeed a difficult thing to do. It was not until Christianity was firmly implanted that women lost these rights, and the equality of the law concerning women came into question.

An argument can be made by Wiccans that their religion has evolved since Gardner created it. That however only shows more conclusively how far removed Wicca is from anything Celtic. Yet the point must be made that as much of Gardners laws involve liturgy and ritual format, as long as those things are found in Wicca, then even those groups that have put aside Gardners laws are still abiding by them by default.

Other corollary evidence comes from Wiccan statements about themselves. Of the Druids, all that can be agreed upon, based on evidence, was that they were intimately involved in sacrifices. Yet, many Wiccans state that they "..are the priestcraft for the pagan people...". They are even "training clergy". Yet, within Gaelic/Celtic culture all people were considered capable of, and responsible for, the mediation of the Gods on their own behalf. Celtic regard for personal responsibility is amply abundant. This is particularly true as regards to mediating the Gods on ones own behalf, and is so obvious and well known that even pop culture books such as The Celtic Tradition by Caitlin Matthews tell of this truth. This has even been commented on by respected celtophiles such as Peter Berresford-Ellis as being a part of the mindset of the Gaels unto this day.

Even the Triads of our people show where the redactor's hands slipped on occasion, and let go expressions of the feeling among our forebears, that kept priests were an abomination. The idea was, evidently, that the first place we give up our personal power over our lives is to priestcrafts. From there on out, it is one piece of our lives at a time, until we are veritable slaves. Slavery is not a position taken with grace by our people.

This is not to deny the fact that certainly after the coming of Christianity, and probably before, that there were probably orders of Monks dedicated to the service of one or a number of deities. This is only to say that just as there were not temples of the Greek and Roman type, neither were there sacredotes or "clergy", whose functions were to mediate and/or intercede with the Gods on the behalf of other people. The sacrifices that these officiated over were not to appease angry deities. Indo-European sacrifices were for the renewal of the world, which itself according to Indo-European thought was created from the primordial sacrifice of a deity.

In fact, traditional celtic religion was votive/sacrificial in nature. Concepts of votive offerings and world renewing sacrifice, though central to Celtic religion, have no position in Wicca.

When I was asked to write this essay, I was also asked to keep it as short as possible, yet not neglecting thoroughness. This should be enough though, to establish the premise quite securely, that Wicca is not descended form our Gaelic/Celtic ancestors.

Special Thanks To:
Lugaid MacRobert
Marcus Harris
Stephanie Williams

Sources:
Popular Superstitions, Sir William R. Wilde, Sterling Publishing, c. 1995
The Druids, Peter Berresford Ellis, Eerdmans Books
Death, War and Sacrifice, Dr. Bruce Lincoln, University of Chicago
Warriors, Priests and Cattle, Dr. Bruce Lincoln, University of Chicago
Myths and Symbols of Pagan Europe, H.R. Ellis-Davidson, Syracuse University
Myth, Legend and Romance - An Encyclopedia Of The Irish Folk Tradition, Dr. Daithi OhOgain, Prentice Hall
A History of Pagan Europe, Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick
Celtic Goddesses, Miranda Green, Braziller
The Silver Bough Vols 1-4, F. Marion MacNeill, Maclellan
The Folklore of the Scottish Highlands, Dr. Anne Ross, Barnes & Nobles
The Celtic Consciousness, edited by Robert Driscoll, Braziller
The Carmina Gadelica, Alexander Carmichael, Lindisfarne Press
Celtic Heritage, Alwyn and Brinley Rees, Thames & Hudson
The Tain, Thomas Kinsella, Oxford
The World of the Druids, Miranda Green, Thames & Hudson
Twilight of the Celtic Gods, David Clarke with Andy Roberts, Blandford
Lebor Gebala Erenn Parts 1-5, trans. R.A.S. MacAlistair, Irish Texts Society
Clannada na Gadelica, "A Tripartite World and Triune Logic", Iain Mac an tSaoir, 1997
The Pickengill Papers-The Origin of the Gardnerian Craft, W.E. Liddell, Capall Bann pub
Oxford History Of Britain, Oxford University Press
Dictionary of Word Origins, John Ayto, Arcade, c. 1990
Celtic Women, Peter Berresford Ellis, Eerdmans Pub, c. 1995,
The Women of the Celts, Jean Markale, Gordon Cremonesi, c. 1975
A HISTORY OF WITCHCRAFT-Sorcerers, Heretics and Pagans, Jeffrey B. Russell, Thames and Hudson
Drawing Down The Moon, Margot Adler
The Pickengill Papers, W.E. Liddell
The Celtic TraditionCaitlin Matthews, Element Books
The Celtic World, Miranda Green
Merlin : Priest of Nature, Jean Markale

Some parts of this essay were based on an article by Lughaid MacRoberts, who encouraged the author of this article to utilize his paper, which was copyrighted in 1988.
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  • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

    Tue, November 15, 2005 - 4:40 AM
    Nicely done. I have no problem with Wicca, or Wiccans (my wife practices Wicca)--I have no problem with ecclecticism (my own path is not wholly Celtic, nor entirely traditional), but I *do* have a problem with misinformation, historical revisionism, and disrespect. I think that if people feel a sense of resonance with a Celtic deity or festival then that's great and they should adopt it *in its Celtic form*. If they don't like it in its traditional form, they should look eleswhere, not twist it out of all resemblance to its traditional form but keep the Celtic name (or slap a Celtic name on something that was never Celtic to begin with). It's a practice that shows disrespect to my ancestors and the deities that were such an important part of their lives.
    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Sat, January 20, 2007 - 11:18 PM
      Yes a certain amount of respect it good, but too much 'dulls the blade' of critical thinking. Empassioned deism can transform into loveliness, a Celtic quality. It's all art....fullness. Quality play, incumbent on being as truthful as possible, within the ropes of freedom...license, that is the way to understanding respect. In fact Wicca is very Celtic, inextracably so, as symbol and meaning.
      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Mon, January 22, 2007 - 6:56 PM
        Hmmm. Personally I think there is far too much attention payed to "ethnic" variants of Paganism. The Celts were all over the freaking place - one of their major centers was in Anatolia (Turkey). In the British Isles they were, how should I put this, invaders, were they not? Uh, as in, like the Romans. This silly desire to draw nice neat lines around "my Paganism" as opposed to "your Paganism" sounds like a child who doesn't want his or her peas touching the mashed potatos. Wicca contains a great deal that is at least inspired by Celtic traditions, and possibly some genuine unbroken intiatory traditions that managed to survive the Dark Ages and the Burning Times, but it also contains a good deal of Renaissance ceremonial magic, a lot of late antique theurgic Platonism, at least a little Hinduism and Buddhism, a lot that Gardner "borrowed" from Leland (much of which was probably based on genuine survivals of Paganism from Roman times and before), Margaret Murray's reseach/speculations, shamanic traditions from the steppes of Asia, and some stuff that was probably just made up. And also a great deal of inspiration and guidance from the Gods.

        Wicca for the last six decades has also been strongly influenced by what sells books and what fills paid seats at workshops. Just as for the 1600 years prior to that all of Paganism was strongly influenced by what you could get away with without getting yourself killed!
        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

          Thu, January 25, 2007 - 3:54 PM
          Good points. But I think we should not forget that wicca was created *outside* the Celtic culture. It's fine if it was inspired by it but people just assumed that it had something to do with the Celtic tribes or Irish/Scottish folklore which it doesn't.

          When the Celtic culture was in it's heyday it absorbed elements from different cultures it encounterd, but it was on it's on terms.
          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

            Fri, January 26, 2007 - 2:34 PM
            >> When the Celtic culture was in it's heyday it absorbed elements from different cultures it encounterd, but it was on it's on terms. <<

            I think my bottom line is that things like "Celtic culture" and "Celtic religion" - or any kind of culture or religion whatsoever, are dynamic and complex things. We can make generalizations, and shouldn't shy away from them, but at the same time certain kinds of absolute statements aren't supportable. Oh Gods, I'm prevaricating! Sorry. "Wicca is not Celtic" has some truth to it, but it obscures a great deal of truth at the same time. Very often it is a "slogan" for those who want to dance gleefully on Paganism's grave. Wicca is not "made up" - any more than any modern sect of Christianity is "made up". Religions evovle and change with time - and that in and of itself does not invalidate them. This is true even when a religion makes up untrue stories about itself. Zen Buddhism, for instance, is full of stories that are largely fabricated, but that are often based on shreds of truth. So what? People like to make up stories - I say, just be sure to make them good. Also, try not to get caught if you are really going to try to pass off your stories as true. It's really embarrassing to belong to a religious tradition that has to say "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
  • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

    Sat, November 19, 2005 - 11:48 PM
    That is a great piece by Iain Mac an tSaoir and Dawn O'Laoghaire. I know they both caught alot of slack from the Wiccan community when they wrote it. Isaac Bonewits wrote a similar arguement awhile ago and as soon as I find it I'll post it here. BTW you can find other great pieces on Celticism at this link. www.clannada.org/wicca.php Thanks for sharing this piece with others. You be suprise how many Celtist & Druids get frustrated when others try to tell them that Wicca is the Old Way. For those who don't know how to present their arguement this piece is perfect for them to use.

    Beannú na déithe's n'aindhéithe ort
    ~Gypsy
    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Sun, November 27, 2005 - 3:35 PM
      Wow! What an interesting read. I am of true Celtic descent. I discovered Wicca before I even understood what the ancient Celtic religion was. It was through Wicca that I learned about the ancient Celtic way.

      I appreciate learning about different ancient cultures in the aspect of Joseph Cambell's "Power of Myth", which was written about the discovering of ancient traditions and the meaning and symbolism behind them. I've always been fascinated by our ancient past in general, but I never really understood where Wicca originated from. It seemed to put all of ancient pagan mysteries in one huge melting pot. I have often wondered why it was called an ancient Celtic religion or "the old ways".

      I appreciate Wicca for what it is. It has taught me a lot over the years, but there were so many loopholes and questions that I had, whether which author was correct. So many books I've read on the subject of Wicca had not corresponded with each other. It was so hard for me to grasp it and say, "OK this is what feels right for me!" in a ritualistic sence. I've always looked at life as one big ritual and did not feel the need to practice a full sacred ritual for every Wiccan holiday (with all due respect for those who do). For me, it's always been about honoring oneself and others in the mystery of life.

      I am Celtic, by blood and by spirit. Although, I might not practice every tradition as the Ancient Celts once did, I know who I am and where I come from. It's so honorary for me. Thank you so much for writing this article and putting The Ancient Celtic Path in this perspective. I learned something about myself through reading it.

      Blessings, Epona
  • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

    Fri, January 13, 2006 - 6:49 PM
    It's a nice compliment to have an original work cited as a reference; a high honour indeed.

    However, this article is copyright Iain Mac an tSaoir a.k.a John Wright and Clannada na Gadelica 1994-2006. Clannada na Gadelica formally and respectfully requests of the original poster, to please post as to who they received it from, cite the original URL as a link from which it was pulled, along with the proper copyright notations?

    We regret having to police up the useage of our copyrighted materials, but it has become necessary, as we have found that a person or persons have absconded with unauthorised printouts of coyrighted materials off of our web site and yahoo groups list. These were put into color-coded indexed binders and are now being used in an unauthorised and fraudulent manners, both as teaching materials and in order to hold themselves out fraudulently as a Gaelic Traditionalist a.k.a Diasporal(an) Gaelic Traditionalist. Thus they have now made it necessary for us to defend the copyright of all of our original materials, which include original, specific definitional and descriptive phraseology, so as not to lose it.

    We apologise for any inconvenience and we trust you will understand our position.


    Best Regards,

    Kathleen O'Brien Blair
    Clannada na Gadelica
  • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

    Sat, January 14, 2006 - 12:16 PM
    Here is my only problem with this... Who is to say you can't be Wiccan AND Celtic? Look, people have different ways of seeing spirituality. Spirituality is such a deeply personal thing and perception changes greatly from one person to the next... All I am saying is be open to the possibility that both can coincide. Also... be open to the possibility that some Wiccan groups base their tradition on the more celtic side of paganism than anything... there is no ONE way to do anything... if there was this world would be a boring place.
    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Sat, January 14, 2006 - 1:31 PM
      "Here is my only problem with this... Who is to say you can't be Wiccan AND Celtic?"

      The article points out a number of fundamental differences in philosophy--in those particulars at least you can't be both. Wicca in some instances gives a Celtic name to something that is distinctly *not* Celtic (like the holiday that Wiccans call Mabon)--and this, I think, can only confuse people who, for whatever reason, are trying to explore Celtic spirituality in particular (perhaps because their ancstry is Celtic or whatever). Wicca also takes some things that are genuinely Celtic and takes liberties with them (like Samhain). I'm not entirely sure how I feel about this last one. On the one hand I think it is valid for customs to change over time to reflect the changing realities of our lives (some of the most central pillars of ancient Celtic spirituality, like sacrifice, no longer seem appropriate in their original form). On the other hand, I have spoken with some Wiccans who insist that they *do* celebrate Samhain in the ancient Celtic tradition (in both the date and the particulars of ceremony and such), which is just plain false.

      Nobody is saying that Wicca is bad, or the Wiccan way is incorrect--just that the Wiccan penchant for hanging Celtic names on things in many instances fails to reflect genuine Celtic traditional practices or even a genuine traditional Celtic sensability. There is nothing wrong with ecclecticism. Revisionism is a different matter.
      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Sat, January 14, 2006 - 8:48 PM
        I just skimmed the post so I dont know if this was already mentioned, but (nothing again against Wicca or anything new age) Wicca didnt really kick off until around the 1920s. It is the newest form of witchcraft. Nothing wrong with it though if it is your path, it is just a modernized religion. Besides, change has been found to be very effective (maybe the fundamentalists should learn that one). ;)
      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Sun, January 15, 2006 - 5:48 PM
        "Nobody is saying that Wicca is bad, or the Wiccan way is incorrect--just that the Wiccan penchant for hanging Celtic names on things"

        You mean the way Romans "borrowed" from the Greeks? Or the way the Christians "borrowed" from other religions before it? People take ideas they like from other religions and incorporate them into their own. It happens all the time. It is human nature. We take what we know and we build upon it from our personal experience with the divine.

        What I am saying is this... you are being very close-minded and ego-centric(very human qualities - not trying to sound mean) when you say that there is only ONE way to do something. I know people who are of Celtic heritage (true heritage - whatever that means for that matter) that practice Wicca. What does that make them?

        Also... why is it so bad that another religion has incorporated the Celtic holidays into their belief. If anything is it not helping to keep those beliefs alive? Time changes all beliefs and myths and such, can't we just allow for others to believe and express their spirituality as they see it, without calling it wrong? How about just calling it new and different or non-traditional?
        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

          Sun, January 15, 2006 - 7:45 PM
          "People take ideas they like from other religions and incorporate them into their own."

          And if you were actually listening then you would know I have no problem with that. I have a problem with people slapping a Celtic name on something that is not Celtic or changing something Celtic and then insisting their version *is* the traditional way.

          "What I am saying is this... you are being very close-minded and ego-centric(very human qualities - not trying to sound mean) when you say that there is only ONE way to do something."

          In fact I have gone to considerable lengths to make it clear that that is not what I'm saying. Perhaps you should read what I wrote again.

          "Also... why is it so bad that another religion has incorporated the Celtic holidays into their belief."

          I didn't say that it was. In fact I believe I said that ecclecticism is just peachy with me. What I have a problem with is people slapping a Celtic name on something that is not Celtic (it's misleading and yhat is not a good thing), or changing something Celtic and then insisting they are doing it the traditional way. If you want to celebrate Samhain then that's just groovy. If you want to change Samhain because you think it needs to be updated to reflect a changing world then that's up to you--as long as you are up front about the fact then I don't have a problem with it.

          "can't we just allow for others to believe and express their spirituality as they see it, without calling it wrong?"

          You open this post by quoting me saying "Nobody is saying that Wicca is bad, or the Wiccan way is incorrect" I'm not sure what part of that you are having a hard time understanding.
          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

            Sun, January 15, 2006 - 8:19 PM
            You aren't saying Wicca is bad or incorrect, but you are saying it is incorrect or wrong for them to use Celtic stuff etc...

            "then insisting their version *is* the traditional way"

            How do you know *your* version IS the traditional way? Were you alive in ancient times?

            "Perhaps you should read what I wrote again."

            That's not condescending or anything... *rolls eyes* I did read it. Obviously you *didn't* make yourself clear or I wouldn't be questioning your intentions.

            " I'm not sure what part of that you are having a hard time understanding."

            In the paragraph above this statement you were saying it was wrong... sure you gave conditions where you find it wrong. What I am saying is that just because someone changes or updates something it doesn't negate it. what do you want them to do, vocalize to everyone that what they are doing is "celtic inspired" instead of passed down by tradition?

            Saying that Wicca is not Celtic may be an acurate statement, but it is very obviously inspired by Celtic ways... along with some British, Greek and others...

            Oh, I am in mood to argue. Text is not the best medium for it anyhow... because obviously we are not understanding each other.
            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

              Mon, January 16, 2006 - 3:50 AM
              "You aren't saying Wicca is bad or incorrect, but you are saying it is incorrect or wrong for them to use Celtic stuff etc..."

              Um...no, that's not not what I'm saying. I'm saying don't say it's Celtic if it's not and don't say it's traditional if it's not.

              "How do you know *your* version IS the traditional way? Were you alive in ancient times? "

              Reconstructionists devote a great deal of time and energy doing research into traditional ways--there is a fair amount of information out there.
              ,
              "That's not condescending or anything... *rolls eyes* I did read it. Obviously you *didn't* make yourself clear or I wouldn't be questioning your intentions."

              What's obvious is that you have poor reading comprehension and a large chip on your shoulder.

              "What I am saying is that just because someone changes or updates something it doesn't negate it."

              And I have said the same thing several times--as long as they aren't insisting that they are doing something the traditional way. I have actually had Wiccans tell me they are following 4000 year old Celtic traditions.
              • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                Mon, January 16, 2006 - 5:31 PM
                "What's obvious is that you have poor reading comprehension and a large chip on your shoulder. "

                Whatever, jackass. Keep insulting me. THAT is the way to win an argument. What is obvious is you were NOT clear in your intentions or in what you said. I asked for clarity and you insulted. That's real intelligent.

                If the moderator... doesn't delete mine and your responces I will take this to tribe officials. Obviously this is NOT a discussion any longer and an insult game. Which I DO NOT play!!!!!
              • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                Mon, January 16, 2006 - 10:51 PM
                "And I have said the same thing several times--as long as they aren't insisting that they are doing something the traditional way. I have actually had Wiccans tell me they are following 4000 year old Celtic traditions."

                I'm actually torn in a couple of directions here.

                On the one hand it grates against my decidedly geeky academic self that folks in the pagan community (of whatever stripe) in their hunger for guidance and information swallow some pretty shoddy research.

                On the other - while, as a much respected History Prof. and Presbyterian Minister once said in my Western Religions class, "Faith has nothing to fear from scholarship," I also feel that faith doesn't need scholarship or historical accuracy to be legitimate.

                I don't have the link right now but Slate had an article this fall addressing specifically Wicca's seeming obsession of gaining legitimacy by "proving" ancient roots. And I think they have a point. If we look at any of the world's other religions there isn't this tone of, "We're just as good as you because we have old traditions too" going on.

                With that said - I think this thread has made some very valid points. In particular what we can research and extrapolate from archeological evidence as being possible/probable Pre-Christain Celtic religious practices is definitely NOT Wicca. Wicca is purely Gardner's construct. Did he "borrow" - certainly. Does that make Wicca as a faith illegitmate - certainly not. Again, faith and belief have nothing to fear from scholarship. In that long ago Western Religions class one of our texts examined the Bible with an eye to finding out who actually wrote it and when. Fascinating. Did that text sway the Catholics in the room that their faith was "wrong" or illegitimate? No. Because belief and faith are centered in the soul.

                For me - the work of reconstructionists satisfies my mind and my "need to know" what my many times great grandmother may have done during her day and what beliefs may have satisfied her soul. But, to satisfy my soul I only need my personal, private experience with Her.

                Peace,
                Raven
                • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                  Tue, January 17, 2006 - 4:01 AM
                  "On the other - while, as a much respected History Prof. and Presbyterian Minister once said in my Western Religions class, "Faith has nothing to fear from scholarship," I also feel that faith doesn't need scholarship or historical accuracy to be legitimate."

                  I understand what you're saying. But I'm a scientist--I could show you a list as long as your arm of times faith has been wrong about matters within the purview of science, so I just have less faith in faith than you do I guess. I also had a long term relationship with a paranoid schizophrenic who was absolutely positive that her delusions were reality--that *really* shook my faith inwhat anyone (including myself) believes to be true without some sort of verification. So I firmly believe that revelation and scholarship need to be used in tandem. But that's sort of beside the point in a way--I'm not a pure reconstructionist or even a pure Celticist...I think ecclecticism is fine and I think some updating of practice is almost unavoidable. My real problem is with revisionism and filling people's heads with misinformation--I don't like it on general principles, and in this particular case I think it shows disrespect for our ancestors. I don't insist people do things the old way, only that they not misrepresent what the old ways were.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                    Tue, January 17, 2006 - 2:47 PM
                    *G* Believe me Lenny - I've struggled to reconcile logic and the solidity of the scientific method with personal experience that can't be replicated in a controlled environment.

                    "I also had a long term relationship with a paranoid schizophrenic who was absolutely positive that her delusions were reality--that *really* shook my faith inwhat anyone (including myself) believes to be true without some sort of verification."

                    *nod* Such an experience would be discomfiting to say the least. It can also lead us into the realm of philosophy where we question what is "real" at all. Some will maintain that "reality" is only "reality" because the majority agree that it is.

                    "My real problem is with revisionism and filling people's heads with misinformation--I don't like it on general principles, and in this particular case I think it shows disrespect for our ancestors. I don't insist people do things the old way, only that they not misrepresent what the old ways were."

                    Here I concur wholeheartedly. One of the reasons that such misrepresentation occurs I believe is because even with the evidence gathered through archeological and anthropological methods we still are essentially speculating about what occured with our ancestors. Such speculation by researchers in those fields does have a basis of evidence, however at the same time we can't know for certain that what seems logical to us would to those ancestors. It seems logical to me that an ancient people would focus on the sun and make their high holy days coincide with the solstices and the equinoxes - and yet consistently I see writings in the pagan community that stress Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Litha as the "major" holidays of a predominantly agrarian people. I can't buy that train of logic because having grown up around farmers and ranchers it's far more important what the sun is doing than anything else. At the same time - I can't be certain my ancestors felt the same because they were very different from me and their world was very different from mine.

                    In the end I accept that my "truth" may not be that of others although there are a few whose eyes light up when I recount those experiences because they too have had them. At the same time I don't throw out logic or science or scholarship because all of these can help deepen my appreciation of the world that has been shaped by Her.

                    *G* And when I find myself getting TOO caught up in wanting things black and white and proved to the nth degree I go to the Bard, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

                    I very much appreciate the level of discussion we've got going here. It never hurts any of us to examine what we believe from time to time.

                    Peace,
                    Raven
                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                      Tue, January 17, 2006 - 5:03 PM
                      "*G* Believe me Lenny - I've struggled to reconcile logic and the solidity of the scientific method with personal experience that can't be replicated in a controlled environment"

                      Ha! You know, many times in science tribes I have been in the position of arguing against atheists who insist that if science can't touch it, it ain't real. Life is the art of drawing sufficient conclusions from insufficient data they say. And sometimes the arguments we have with others mirror our internal struggles.

                      "It seems logical to me that an ancient people would focus on the sun and make their high holy days coincide with the solstices and the equinoxes - and yet consistently I see writings in the pagan community that stress Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Litha as the "major" holidays of a predominantly agrarian people. I can't buy that train of logic because having grown up around farmers and ranchers it's far more important what the sun is doing than anything else. At the same time - I can't be certain my ancestors felt the same because they were very different from me and their world was very different from mine."

                      It makes sense if you look at it from the perspective of a pastoralist people. Samhain, Beltain and Imbolc at least seem to have been timed around animals needs--the bringing in of cattle from summer pastures and the butchering of steers that were useless for breeding and too expensive in fodder to maintain through the winter, the driving of the cattle out to summer pastures, and the lactation of the ewes, respectively. Cattle were incredibly important in Ireland--they weren't just the standard unit of currency, they were what defined and determined nobility. Nobles were people who maintained enough cattle to lease some out to 'clients'--if you lost the ability to maintain clients (if you lost your surplus cattle) then your family was degraded and no longer considered noble. If your herd expanded to the point that you could have clients of your own for three generations then your family moved into the ranks of nobility. For a society deeply concerned with social rank defined by cattle, the importance and timing of Samhain and Beltain, at least, make sense.

                      It's possible, too, that the tilling of the earth was left to subject peoples who had to yield up part of their crops in tribute--if that was the case then I suppose solar holidays could have been important to the peasant folk--maybe outside of the cults of the noble druids and maybe not sufficiently visible to--or considered beneath the notice of--contemporary writers? That could explain why we have no record of Celts celebrating the high solar days. Impossible to prove, but not unreasonable.

                      "It never hurts any of us to examine what we believe from time to time"

                      You rock, Raven!
                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                        Wed, January 18, 2006 - 6:50 PM
                        Raven I think that you are a very intelligent individual. Taking the discussion into Philosphy was absolutely brilliant and exactly where I would've taken it. I really have respect for you and your opinion.
                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                        Wed, February 1, 2006 - 2:33 PM
                        +++ It makes sense if you look at it from the perspective of a pastoralist people. Samhain, Beltain and Imbolc at least seem to have been timed around animals needs--the bringing in of cattle from summer pastures and the butchering of steers that were useless for breeding and too expensive in fodder to maintain through the winter, the driving of the cattle out to summer pastures, and the lactation of the ewes, respectively. +++

                        Lughnasaid too is an agriculturally-linked festival. Generally, it falls around the time the grain is ready to harvest. Given that they only got one crop of cereal grains a year, celebrating the beginning of the harvest seems to me to be a good year. A lot of us have no idea how important that cereal crop (be it wheat or barley or rye,) was to people. As far back as historians have been able to chase the data, more Britons starved to death between the First of May and the end of July than in any other comparable period of the year. Having a crop ready to harvest insured that one was likely to have both bread and beer for the next year. That has to be an important enough consideration to merit its own festival.

                        My lady wife thinks( and I agree,) that originally these four festivals were not fixed as to date, but rather were celebrated when a given milestone of the agricultural cycle was reached. For example, it's unlikely that Beltane would have been celebrated until AFTER all of the plowing and planting was done, thus freeing people to go with the cattle up to the summer pastures, even if that sometimes pushed the celebration back into May, due, say, to weather holding things up.
                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                          Wed, February 1, 2006 - 8:54 PM
                          "Lughnasaid too is an agriculturally-linked festival. Generally, it falls around the time the grain is ready to harvest."

                          Here's where I usually have to part company with my ancestors if I want to be accurate for where I'm living now.

                          Spring wheat and other grain crops planted at that time MIGHT be harvested around August first. Generally in the Palouse area of the Inland Northwest of the US you'll find wheat being harvested during the month of August.

                          However, winter wheat - the kind that MUCH of the central plains states plant and harvest (Kansas, Nebraska, Oklahoma, parts of Colorado etc.) is usually greening up and growing well by the end of April and by June harvest can be in full swing. *G* I ought to know I grew up in the middle of it in Kansas with my dad operating our local grain elevator. Now that leaves the harvest of "first grains" running right into the Summer Solstice. July tends to see the continued maturing of other garden crops through that area and many County Fairs that are actually a very "secular" way of celebrating this kind of bounty occur then during the months of July and August.

                          I think the main thing to remember is that the climate of the British Isles dictates a specific growing season that doesn't really coincide with much of the US. So if you want to be very accurate you may not be celebrating these festivals at their "accepted" time - the time that works for that particular climate where they originated.

                          What I've chosen to do is recognize that more than likely because of the latitude and shorter growing season than enjoyed here Lughnasad focused on the harvesting of grains planted in the Spring and accept the Aug. 1st "date" as being a good time for that holiday even though all around me every year folks are essentially harvesting the last of the tomatoes, cucumbers, zucchini is taking over and just about everything often associated with Mabon is what's being brought in barring the late summer and autumn squashes.

                          *chuckle* In the end it really doesn't matter when our ancestors did what - what matters is if we get out of celebrating these festivals the spiritual connection that we seek.

                          Peace,
                          Raven
                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                            Thu, February 2, 2006 - 7:58 AM
                            All good points about practice in North America. However, what I was discussing is the historical relationship of the four major Celtic festivals to the agricultural cycle. That being the case, the conditions pertaining in Britain and Ireland ARE pertinent, and modern agricultural practices in the Midwest are irrelevant.

                            The point that was being made was that all four festivals were centered on events in the annual agricultural cycle which, while ocurring at points roughly equidistant around the year, were NOT set in stone, but rather would vary from year to year based on natural forces entirely outside human control. That having been established, we can recognize that celebrating these holidays according to a sideral calendar is a convenience, but probably does not reflect hiostorical practice.

                            If you have not read it, I would recommend Ronald Hutton's _Stations of the Sun - The Ritual Year in England_. While it primarily addresses social customs and celebrations that are much later in origin than the Heroic Age in Ireland, it is still perhaps the mest book I have come across to describe the yearly cycle of life in rural Britain in comprehensible terms.
                            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                              Thu, February 2, 2006 - 7:53 PM
                              "However, what I was discussing is the historical relationship of the four major Celtic festivals to the agricultural cycle." Indisputably - but you did not specify who's agricultural cycle. I chose to not assume you meant only the cycle that pertains to the British Isles. I also chose to recognize that while that cycle works - even with it's variations for those in that region it doesn't really work for those living elsewhere.

                              I guess the real question that hasn't been brought up yet is "What does it matter?" Is it more important to know the feeling of being grateful for a good year in the fields or to cling to arbitrary dates that are only relevant to a very specific geographical place? The scholarship is fine and wonderful. I happen to be someone who pushes her students to use good scholarship and practice it. At the same time - at what point is it too much? At what point is spirituality exactly about that - spirit rather than what my many times ancestor and ancestress did at a specific time of year?

                              Peace,
                              Raven
                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                      Wed, February 1, 2006 - 2:16 PM
                      +++ It seems logical to me that an ancient people would focus on the sun and make their high holy days coincide with the solstices and the equinoxes - and yet consistently I see writings in the pagan community that stress Samhain, Imbolc, Beltaine, and Litha as the "major" holidays of a predominantly agrarian people. +++

                      Those four holidays are the ONLY Celtic holy days or festivals actually identifued by name in primary source materials. (I'm at work right now, away from my library, or I'd cite the actual source.) Now, it's indisputable that other cultures of that period DID have celebrations at the Solstices. The Midsummer bonfire festivals in the Orkneys, (where social custom owes more to Scandanavia than to Britain,) are a good example. But there just isn't a lot of historical evidence for pre-Christian celebrations at the Equinoxes. I have a hypothesis that this had to do with the solstices being easier to fix in time/predict than the equinoxes, but it's based as much on educated guesswork as it is on evidence.
                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                        Wed, February 1, 2006 - 2:20 PM
                        I need to correct this previous post of mine.

                        It is Imbolc, Beltane, Lughnasaid, and Samhain which are mentioned in the original Irish sopurce material.

                        Sorry about that. Got in a hurry.
                • Unsu...
                   

                  Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                  Mon, March 27, 2006 - 2:29 PM
                  i like the thrust of what you're saying, for what it's worth.. mainlyon the faith and belief stance and these are more of mystical origins than reason/rationalism. legitimization is a hard issue.. but religion/spirituality is really personal, as much as we'd like to say a wider body, ancient or not have or should practice their forms.. what is authoratative.. IS..

                  The Celts at times defined themselves in certain ways, but the reason they were able to morph there way and influence pretty much every civilization with their art and spirituality.. because they found something actually more of a transcendant base or source.. not in their forms, but rather in their spirit..

                  WIcca seems to have a thirst to be what it is not at times.. like Modern Art.. or atheism.. granted Wicca is "from" natural religion.. (some may argue here and i don;t care, i admit from speaking from my arse).. It is certainly Pagan.. but it's mysticism has more to do with Cayce's brand of "religion" than really ..wherever it came from .. why dress it up with troubador colours.. when it's sentiment might be better fit with a Poe Poem..

                  at it's heart Wicca is about the art, nuance, gesture of decomposition..and that is the confusing things to me at makes it at odds both with natural religion and the Celts. .

                  the Celts had their own love of destruction.. the Shadow that finally overcome their final demise in the Druidic influence, that i think Cayce was one of the last greats..

                  the primal nature overcoming in bloodlust over their competetive spirit.. that was the plight of the Celt People.. it almost destroyed them early on (when they were able to evolve out of the initial primal tribes) within their first "great" campaign.. with the Hun's.. and some actually think Attilla was that Creative.. anyway i digres.. that's my beef, pork, carrots, and celery.. in this whole Wicca and Celt thang..

                  SC
    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Sat, December 29, 2007 - 7:37 AM
      Some Celtic practitioners are WICCA but not all WICCA are Celtic. Once again I think of Gerald Gardner, without him what would we call WICCA? It is all apples and oranges to me, though an interesting discussion.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Sat, December 29, 2007 - 10:12 AM
        Not quite.

        Wicca is NOT a Celtic religion. There's no two ways about it.

        There are "Celtic Wiccans" but at best they can only claim inspiration from Celtic sources. The closest to Celtic I've ever seen a self-styled "Celtic Wiccan" come is calling their Gods and Goddesses by Celtic names, while the rituals and symbols were most assuredly anything BUT Celtic.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Sat, December 29, 2007 - 11:20 PM
        Without Gardner we wouldn't HAVE Wicca. It's that simple. It's not that Wicca would exist under a different name...it wouldn't exist.
  • Unsu...
     

    Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

    Sun, February 5, 2006 - 3:02 PM
    “This article copyright John Wright a.k.a Iain Iain Mac an tSaoir and Clannada na Gadelica 1991 – 2006. NO reproduction in whole or in part may be made, nor posted to other e-lists, nor e-mailed to individuals off this list, nor printed off for any purposes personal or otherwise, without the express written permission of Iain Mac an tSaoir a.k.a John Wright, and/or Clannada na Gadelica and/or his specified representatives.”

    This should have gone out when I first posted the article. So there's no misunderstanding, I mistakenly posted this without the permission of Clannada na Gadelica, I apoligize to them. Anyone wishing to read this and other articles by them should do so at their website.
    www.clannada.org/

    Ruairí
    • Rob
      Rob
      offline 0

      Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Tue, March 28, 2006 - 4:45 AM
      Hi,

      I would like to contribute the following thought to this discussion. Christianity is not Celtic either. It was invented only about 2000 years ago, and originally was composed from elements of Judaism, with gnosticism, mithraism and greco-roman cultural and religious ideas thrown in for good measure. It does not recognise the realms of eath, sea and sky. Instead there are heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, and the earth, this vale of tears. Also christianity does not subscribe to heroic morality, which is fundamental to celtic religion. Christianity, perhaps most tellingly, purports to be a monotheistic religion, whereas Celtic religion and spirituality is pantheistic and animistic. Christianity is a very patriarchal religion, which excludes women from positions of authority - something which is quite foreign to Celtic religion. Also christians worhsip in churches, whereas celts worhsip outdoors. It is plain therefore that there is no such thing as Celtic Christianity, and those purporting to practice it should stop peddling nonsence.

      Bless you all.
      Robert :)
      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Tue, March 28, 2006 - 8:00 AM
        Rob,

        It's fairly obvious you know little if anything about the history of Christianity in the British Isles. Both Britain and Ireland were largely Christian at the time that the "Anglo-Saxon" migrations to Britain began. The collapse of the Roman Empire and the subsequent pagan invasions had left Christians in Britian and Ireland largely out of contact with Rome. Consequently Christianity in Britain developed along significantly different lines than were being followed on the Continent. This variant form of Christianity as practiced in Britain and Ireland is commonly called "Celtic Christianity," and the liturgy and customs are sufficiently well-documented that it would not be difficult to re-create that form of worship. When contact was re-established between Rome and the Isles with the arrival of Augustine in 597 CE, the doctrinal and liturgical differences between Roman practice and Celtic practice were a significant point of friction, which did not begin to become resolved until after the Synod of Whitby in 664. Nevertheless, some Christians seem to feel that the Celtic Church practiced an older and purer form of Christianity than that followed by the Catholic Church today, and are seeking to recreate the older form.
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

          Tue, March 28, 2006 - 11:53 AM
          thank you Rob for giving some historical context to this.. it irriatates me too, when somebody comes off like that, with such sweeping statements.. but not like i'm sure i haven't done the same at some time..i'm sure..
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Tue, March 28, 2006 - 11:50 AM
        I would like to contribute the following thought to this discussion. Christianity is not Celtic either. It was invented

        -- was it now.. so you were there..

        only about 2000 years ago, and originally was composed from elements of Judaism, with gnosticism, mithraism and greco-roman cultural and religious ideas thrown in for good measure. It does not recognise the realms of eath, sea and sky. Instead there are heaven, hell, purgatory, limbo, and the earth, this vale of tears.

        -- to me you are talking of a thing called churchianity, you give no regard for how christianity developed in the east, and it's more mystical strains.. which are in fact very much in line with more of the natural religions.. even early church fathers would be considered heretical by todays standards.. of churchianity

        Also christianity does not subscribe to heroic morality, which is fundamental to celtic religion.

        -- again.. that's very narrow minded..

        Christianity, perhaps most tellingly, purports to be a monotheistic religion, whereas Celtic religion and spirituality is pantheistic and animistic.

        -- disagree there too.. it is both, and has both schools in it's great heritage..

        Christianity is a very patriarchal religion, which excludes women from positions of authority -

        -- i think you might want to say that possibly the "religion" of Christianity is largely that.. but the spirituality which has been practiced by many over the centuries isn't nec. such...

        something which is quite foreign to Celtic religion. Also christians worhsip in churches, whereas celts worhsip outdoors. It is plain therefore that there is no such thing as Celtic Christianity, and those purporting to practice it should stop peddling nonsence.

        -- i will not, and there is a celtic christianity.. and can cite about two millenia of interminglings and references for ya.. in fact at one time the celtic spirituality was more catholic than catholicism.. you start looking into the other side of things sir.. and realizing that just because of limited and main stream data.. you lump all the crazies in one bunch..
        .. i conside myself a celtic christian pagan.. and i suppose you would also take large issue with that.. but i would implore you to do a little more researcher and dig deeper if you want to be fair, not that you would need to be.
        • Rob
          Rob
          offline 0

          Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

          Thu, March 30, 2006 - 3:34 AM
          Hi all,

          Well, I guess if Christianity can be Celtic, then Wicca can too. Perhaps it boils down to who is practicing it, and what they bring to it.

          Blessings,
          Rob
          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

            Sat, January 20, 2007 - 10:14 PM
            Very interesting debate. It's similar to the one I was having on the "Celtic music tribe" about what qualifies a particular music style to be labeled "Celtic". It seems the qualifications for music are a lot more stringent then the ones that apply to religion. Is this from just being more politically correct when talking about religion in general? It seems so to me. The comments on this thread restricted themselves as so far as not to step on anyone elses toes in that they didn't want to deny anyone from "doing their own thing" with interpreting Celtic religion, that seem more at home with American individualism then anything "Celtic". On the other hand, music and especially "Celtic" music is still very much community based and there are rules, especially in those areas where the traditions hang on. If that was still true for native Celtic religion there would obviously be no need for this debate because we would all be very much aware of what is and isn't culturally Celtic. And if an influence was to be adapted from another culture or belief it would be on the terms the borrower (in this case the Celtic) and that makes all the difference in the world.

            There was one here that said "well if the Romans borrowed religious ideas from the Greeks, then we ought to be able to as well". I won't even go into the fact that it was that kind of attitude which finally helped to destroy Rome, let alone Greece. But those things took centuries, and Rome was strong and could absorb many different elements. On the other hand Celtic culture is very weak and in most places struggling for it's very survival. Now isn't the time to liberally borrow ideas and embellishments from other cultures to make Celtic culture, religion, music, or whatever, more to your liking. Now is the time to pull back, back to it's foundation and see what's there first.
            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

              Sat, January 20, 2007 - 10:33 PM
              The way I've always looked at it is that Wicca is derived from Celtic Culture the same way Christianity is derived from Judaism. Since Christianity is NOT Judaism (nor is Judaism Christianity), in the same manner, Wicca (in and of itself) is not Celtic and Celtic is not Wicca.

              That's not to say that an ecclectic Wiccan can't fit 'more Celticism' into their practice by mainly worshiping celtic gods and putting on a triskele instead of a pentacle (at which point I would wonder why they don't study to be druids, but that's not the point.)

              -- Justin (aka Rowan Flame) solitary neo-druid in Calgary
              (hi btw, I'm new to tribes, be nice to me :) )
              • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                Sat, January 20, 2007 - 11:12 PM
                "That's not to say that an ecclectic Wiccan can't fit 'more Celticism' into their practice by mainly worshiping celtic gods"

                Kinda like "Jews for Jesus"? Just kidding... Yes, you make a good point. But remember the Early Christians were connected to the Jewish culture, for all purposes were Jews themselves. They thought of themselves as Jews, it was outsiders who gave them the name "Christians". With "Wicca" you have a very different scenario. Wicca was created outside of Celtic culture and then later *after* it was developed for whatever reason glommed on to it.
                • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                  Sun, January 28, 2007 - 6:51 AM
                  Greetings! What an interesting thread - thank you to the author for the original post. I have been given a lot to read! I am new here - first post in this tribe and only 2nd total; I hope to learn more as I go along about ettiquite, the Celts, the conversation and such.
                  I am Scotch-Irish by heritage - Browne and MacIntosh to be specific, and have had the honor of visiting my homelands on several occasions. I had many things revealed to me, most of which I continue to endeavor to understand.
                  Several of those things were these: land and clan - what you had and how many people could help you ensure its success, or who you were helping- were everything. My ancestors might look at you a little oddly if you brought up all this assimilation talk. Survival was paramount. Basic to that was the honoring of what assisted or smited you - on a daily basis.
                  As I understand the Quarters and crossquarters, these were days everyone could put on their calendar, so to speak. You knew they were coming,and you had better act accordingly. Perhaps these days were a holiday because those were the days people gathered together to compare notes, trade with each other, mate with each other to ensure at least some of the babies survived, marry each other, bury the dead, and drink - a lot!
                  Celts are a very practical, yet superstiscous, people. The Christians could not keep them from going back to the same places season after season. they fixed that though - they built churches on top of them! So let the country folk continue their days - it sure looks good to the higher ups in the church to show a rise in attendance! And did the country folk mind? Not at all, they took the oportunity to twist the new guy's celebrations, yet avoid persecution from the authorities. After all, they had to answer to their new rulers, not make too many waves.
                  Meanwhile, back on the homestead, they continued to attend to what was really important - defending their lands,crop yield, taking care of your elders, raising your sons and daughters, herding your flock, and all that entails
                  My experience has shown me that it continues along these lines to this day - take Celtic Christianity, for instance. One of the best pagan rituals I have ever been a part of was conducted by a Catholic nun at Brigit's Well in Kildaire. She is a member of a cell of six women who are Daughters of the Perpetual Flame, and was very excited to show me the crescent moon that is prominent on the forehead of a statue of Mary that stands in front of her church home. "It just appeared there out of the stone when they carved it!"The statue is a very thinnly veiled Brigit, but veiled enough to get under the radar. I got the message.
                  I guess what I am saying is this - they were busy, dirty, tired, happy people, living life the best way they could - and still are!
                  Well, thank you for reading my ramblings. I hope I haven't offended anyone, or taken away from the gist of the conversation. Like most humans i know,I just can't keep my mouth shut! Blessings on your House, Star
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                    Sun, January 28, 2007 - 8:57 AM
                    "As I understand the Quarters and crossquarters, these were days everyone could put on their calendar, so to speak."

                    So this is where I step in and remind everyone that there is no evidence at all that the Celts celebrated the solstices or equinoxes, and that associating the Celtic feast days with the crossquarters assumes they were timed primarily by the position of the sun (also something for which there is no evidence). At least 3 of the 4 Celtic feast days were roughly timed to coincide with times that were important to pastoralists (Beltaine--the driving of the cattle from winter quarters to summer pastures; Samhain--the driving of cattle from summer pastures to winter quarters and the butchering of stock no needed for breeding and too expensive in fodder to maintain over the winter; and Imbolc--the lambing and lactation of the ewes), and that the Celtic calendar was primarily lunar, so the *exact* timing of the festivals would have depended primarily on the phase of the Moon.

                    I don't want to sound critical of neopagan practice (the more holidays the better as far as I am concerned, and however/whenever you want to celebrate is entirely up to you)--but I think it's important that the historical facts (if that's not too strong a word for things whose evidence is often tangential and sometimes conflicting) not be folded, spindled or mutilated.
                    You don't have to do things the old way, but you should know what the old way was.
                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                      Sun, January 28, 2007 - 12:26 PM
                      So this is where I step in and remind everyone that there is no evidence at all that the Celts celebrated the solstices or equinoxes, and that associating the Celtic feast days with the crossquarters assumes they were timed primarily by the position of the sun (also something for which there is no evidence). At least 3 of the 4 Celtic feast days were roughly timed to coincide with times that were important to pastoralists

                      I didn't mean to imply that they celebrated the days in a religious sense.
                      I would respectfully direct you to a recent article in National Geographic, you can find it here
                      news.nationalgeographic.com/news....html
                      Even if there is no historical evidence of celebrations per se, it seems clear that these days had signifigance to at least some portion of Celtic society. I would still hope they were smart enough to know when the longest and shortest days of the year were and how to take advantage of it, whether it be driving flocks, cutting peat , burying their dead, or sharing some beverage with neighbors.
                      Are you thinking they had no day that was special over another, no time to rest and recoup? I don't think that likely, given the good nature of the people we are speaking about.
                      Thank you again for the provocative thread - it is certainly an important subject! Blessings, Star
                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                        Sun, January 28, 2007 - 4:20 PM
                        "I would respectfully direct you to a recent article in National Geographic, you can find it here
                        news.nationalgeographic.com/news....html. Even if there is no historical evidence of celebrations per se, it seems clear that these days had signifigance to at least some portion of Celtic society."

                        I'm well aware of the circles and tombs and their orientation--but these were not built by Celts. In fact they were built millenia before Celts existed.

                        "I would still hope they were smart enough to know when the longest and shortest days of the year were and how to take advantage of it, whether it be driving flocks, cutting peat , burying their dead, or sharing some beverage with neighbors. "

                        It has nothing to do with how smart they were, it has to do with how they saw the ritual year, and what cyclical events were relevant to them.

                        "Are you thinking they had no day that was special over another, no time to rest and recoup? "

                        Not at all. I'm thinking that their festivals were appropriate to their way of life. Why would you expect pastoralists and agriculturalists to divide the year in the same way?
                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                      Sun, January 28, 2007 - 1:32 PM
                      Lenny - I'd have to generally agree with you but with regard to the following statement I have a few comments: "So this is where I step in and remind everyone that there is no evidence at all that the Celts celebrated the solstices or equinoxes".

                      There is plenty of evidence that the inhabitants, of those later to be consider 'Celtic' domains, observed and likely revered the quarter days. After all how else would you explain Newgrange, Stone Henge and other such neolithic sites that are aligned with the sun? Now I am *not* saying these sites were built by the 'Celts' or 'Druids'. Though I do find it hard to believe that those who belonged to the land before the coming of the Celtic culture were wiped out and replaced by new blood. In such a case then there is evidence of respect for the soltices and equinoxes by those whom I consider my Ancestors. Now given I respect my Ancestors as much as my Gods it is easy for me to draw the conclusion that they not only had knowledge of those days, but likely also revered them. Why else would they go through the immense amount of trouble of building those sites? What I noticed at Avebury is that the earthen works surrounding the stones are not designed to keep people out, but more like an amphitheater for people to gather within. I imagine it would hold quite a gathering too!

                      Where I agree with you is in that there is no evidence that 'Celts' or 'Druids' had any rituals/celebrations tied to those days. But let's not sell ourselves or our Ancestors short and discount any reverance they may have had for the turning of the year, whether celebrated or not. I am with you with regard to reconstructing what our Ancestors believed and that what we call 'Celticism' or 'Druidry' today is likely quite different than what they actually followed.
                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                        Sun, January 28, 2007 - 4:55 PM
                        "Now I am *not* saying these sites were built by the 'Celts' or 'Druids'. Though I do find it hard to believe that those who belonged to the land before the coming of the Celtic culture were wiped out and replaced by new blood."

                        I don't think anybody believes that. As far as I know, the current model for the 'Celticization" of the British Isles involves mostly a movement of ideas rather than large movements of peoples. But "Celtic" refers to culture--to language, religion, mores and sensibilities. These things can change--they apparently *did* change in Ireland. A new way of life (materially), a new religious complex--a new calendar to reflect those cultural changes.

                        "In such a case then there is evidence of respect for the soltices and equinoxes by those whom I consider my Ancestors."

                        I couldn't agree more. If the current model is correct, then most people with Celtic ancestors in Ireland probably also have ancestors who were Megalith builders--Bell Beaker folk or whoever they were. They are every bit as worthy of respect and honour as your Celtic ancestors. But they weren't Celts, and their ways were not Celtic ways any more than their language was a Celtic language. "Celtic" isn't about genes, it's about culture. Don't confuse genetic continuity with cultural continuity--that's all I'm saying. The Megalith Builders doubtless had a ritual calendar appropriate to their culture--it may actually be *more* relevant to our present day way of life than that of the Celts--but it wasn't Celtic. Like I said before, I don't think it's important that you do everything the way the ancient Celts did, I just think it's important you have as accurate a picture as possible of what their way was like.
                        Celtic culture was under attack in Ireland for centuries--the English tried to beat and burn the Celtic out of the Irish, essentially making most facets of Celtic culture illegal. It is important--to me at least--that Celtic culture remain alive in memory at least, if not in actual practice. Without dilution and without revision.
                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                          Sun, January 28, 2007 - 7:01 PM
                          Ok, I am confused - nothing new there I guess, at least where this thread is concerned....

                          "The various ideas surrounding the ancestors manifest in a host of customs, such as the Feast of the Dead. Also, such concepts as that of the dead reincarnating through blood lines, in conjunction with the customs of the Gaelic peoples, provide a sense of continuity and identity that cannot be missed."

                          "...traditional Celtic beliefs hold that the Gods are tied to the people by familial links."

                          "The very foundation of Gaelic culture was the home. The hearth was the cornerstone of the spirituality of the people. In Gaelic religions great emphasis is placed on the sanctity of the home, and strength of the family..."

                          Another post...."Celtic" isn't about genes, it's about culture. Don't confuse genetic continuity with cultural continuity--that's all I'm saying."

                          ". Like I said before, I don't think it's important that you do everything the way the ancient Celts did, I just think it's important you have as accurate a picture as possible of what their way was like"

                          '."Now I am *not* saying these sites were built by the 'Celts' or 'Druids'. Though I do find it hard to believe that those who belonged to the land before the coming of the Celtic culture were wiped out and replaced by new blood."

                          I don't think anybody believes that.'

                          Apparently someone does, or they wouldn't have written it! Please, now...

                          I am really trying, but perhaps I am too dense to make sense of all the twists and turns! Here all these years I thought I was pretty smart - oh well.
                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                            Sun, January 28, 2007 - 7:48 PM
                            "Apparently someone does, or they wouldn't have written it! Please, now... "

                            It was at one time believed that Celts arrived in the British Isles as waves of invaders who displaced the original inhabitants because they were militarily superior. This is no longer believed to be the case. It is currently believed that Celtic culture spread in the same way that English language and western culture spread today--it was the lingua franca of a very important trade network linking the resources of the northwest with the markets and manufacturing centres of the Mediterranean, and it came to be associated with wealth, power, and prestige.

                            "I am really trying, but perhaps I am too dense to make sense of all the twists and turns!"

                            It seems just as likely that I'm not explaining it well. But I can't be more clear unless I know what it is you can't follow.
                            Maybe this will help. Many people in France today have Celtic ancestors from the days when Gaul was Celtic--the Romanization of Gaul didn't involve killing or expelling all the Gauls. But France is not considered a Celtic country--its language is Italic (derived from Latin), its religion is from the Levant with some hefty Romanization, its sensibilities Mediterranean, its institutions a blend of Roman and Germanic. There is genetic continuity with the Celts of Gaul, but not cultural continuity. If the Megalith Builders of the British Isles were the ancestors of many of the Celts of the British Isles (as current theory suggests), that genetic continuity doesn't necessarily imply cultural continuity. There was clearly a discontinuity in language and many other facets of culture, and contemporary sources indicate there was also a discontinuity in the timing of festivals.
                            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                              Sun, January 28, 2007 - 8:25 PM
                              Tell ya what, I'll just keep my keyboard shut , and keep reading... thanks for your time and attention to my posts. I 'll be in "lurk" - it would all make more sense if I were medicated ;) Blessings, Star


                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                          Sun, January 28, 2007 - 9:09 PM
                          I am sorry that I was misunderstood, no where did I say, nor intend to imply that “Celtic” is any more than culture. As I wrote "***I do find it hard to believe*** that those who belonged to the land before the coming of the Celtic culture were wiped out and replaced by new blood." Actually I often debate with folk who believe and argue that not only is Celtic defined by genetics, but also with a belief in a massive migration of people. So yes people still hold onto those old models. There may be lots of new data pointing to better models (of which seem more credible to me), but old views die hard.

                          “Barry Cunliffe argues that the ancient Celts are best depicted as a loose and highly diverse collection of indigenous tribal societies bound together by trade, a common druidic religion, related languages, and similar political institutions — but each having its own local traditions.” copied from wikipedia, though I read it in his books as well. I’ll add that those local traditions would be based on ancestral knowledge.

                          With regard to cultural continuity, the Celtic culture is dead, we’ll never be able to bring it back to life. Nor should we assume that we can, for, whatever we build from it’s ashes will only be inspired by it; built on speculation, assumption and scant evidence. The beginning of the end for the Celtic culture was the introduction of Christianity, as you pointed out religion is one aspect of the culture. England only finished the job that Rome started. What remains is a struggling language, that which resides in history books, a few folk customs and scant glimpse of it in folklore.

                          Yes there is no evidence that the Celts celebrated the quarter days, but why care how other people spend their time and what they call it. Certainly we should edify ourselves on points that to us matter. The problem lies with that troublesome word “Celtic”, for there seems to be more definitions for it then waves on the sea. Often used as an umbrella word where it isn’t appropriate. Here’s an example: “Celtic Pagans”, does that mean “pagans” that speak a Celtic language and follow those customs, “pagans” that live in regions known *today* as Celtic nations, and are we talking about the modern use of the word pagan or as it is commonly used as a pejorative? “Those dirty Celtic pagans!” When folk use “Celtic Christianity“, they’re not using the same definition of Celtic that we are, they’re referring to a branch of Christianity that has it’s roots on Iona. Personally my umbrella covers those traditions that the Celtic culture was built upon.
                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                            Mon, January 29, 2007 - 4:26 AM
                            "I am sorry that I was misunderstood, no where did I say, nor intend to imply that “Celtic” is any more than culture. As I wrote "***I do find it hard to believe*** that those who belonged to the land before the coming of the Celtic culture were wiped out and replaced by new blood.""

                            No, I understood you, What I was trying to say is that academic opinion agrees with you--but that doesn't imply that there had to be cultural continuity regarding asy specific practice.

                            "Yes there is no evidence that the Celts celebrated the quarter days, but why care how other people spend their time and what they call it."

                            I *don't* care how people spend their time--I have caefully taken great pains to express that. I think ecclecticism is just fine--I think people should do whatever makes them happy whatever way works for them. As for what they call it--I've already expressed why I feel it's important that the memory of Celtic culture as it actually was should survive. I will add to that that as an academic I am just plain apalled by sloppiness, misinformation and revisionism (that's not in any way aimed at you--I mean in general and in all topics)

                            "“Celtic Pagans”, does that mean “pagans” that speak a Celtic language and follow those customs, “pagans” that live in regions known *today* as Celtic nations, and are we talking about the modern use of the word pagan or as it is commonly used as a pejorative?"

                            I think we can rule out this last one, but I agree with yiour general point to some degree. I can tell you what it means to *me*, but there is no reason you should be held to my definition. But defining what *was* Celtic isn't nearly as difficult--there is a recognizable complex of language/religion/culture that can meaningfully be grouped under the umbrella term.

                            "When folk use “Celtic Christianity“, they’re not using the same definition of Celtic that we are, they’re referring to a branch of Christianity that has it’s roots on Iona"

                            Celtic Christianity *was* Celtic in the sense that it was distinct from Christianity elewhere and practiced by people who spoke Celtic languages and maintained myriad other Celtic institutions, played Celtic games and had a material culture that wasrecognizably Celtic.

                            "Personally my umbrella covers those traditions that the Celtic culture was built upon"

                            Does it include those traditions that Celtic culture rejected? Where is the sense in that?
                            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                              Mon, January 29, 2007 - 8:45 AM
                              "Does it include those traditions that Celtic culture rejected? Where is the sense in that?" Certainly not when it is *known* to have been rejected. that wouldn't make any sense at all.
                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                            Thu, December 27, 2007 - 9:23 PM
                            Déithe dhuit a Ehric,

                            <eric said>
                            "With regard to cultural continuity, the Celtic culture is dead, we’ll never be able to bring it back to life. Nor should we assume that we can, for, whatever we build from it’s ashes will only be inspired by it; built on speculation, assumption and scant evidence."



                            Whoa... That's pretty harsh. I don't think Celtic culture is dead by a long shot. Not as long as the oral traditions continue. If people continue to keep (in the native tongue) these traditions of stories, songs, and even dance, going, How can it die? If you want to talk pre-Christian religion, then that takes a bit more effort. But the "bare bones" of pre-Christian Celtic religion are in the stories, it's our job to put *meat* on those bones. Symbols and symbolism speak volumes to our subconcious. Maybe that sounds too far out, but I think
                            there's something powerful that happened inside the psyche of those old storytellers and even those that just hear the stories over and over. Of course these just aren't any folktales, if were trying to target the Celtic mindset that they came from, we must be close to the original language as possible.


                            <eric said>
                            "The beginning of the end for the Celtic culture was the introduction of Christianity, as you pointed out religion is one aspect of the culture. England only finished the job that Rome started."



                            I'd say the beginning of the end was when Brennus spared Rome in 387 BC. Julius Cesar wasn't Christian when he laid waste to Gaul. And in Ireland, if left unmolested from continental influence, the Celtic version of Christianty would have continued to suffer (in a good way) the Celtic influence.


                            Cáemgen
                            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                              Fri, December 28, 2007 - 3:48 PM
                              I read this article on the net somewhere before, I think its fron Clannada Na Gadelica isnt it? Its is very good. Too many Wiccans associate themselves with Druids. If they want to 'borrow' our ways then whatever, but dont go around claiming to be the same as us.
                              • Jim
                                Jim
                                offline 2

                                Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                Sat, December 29, 2007 - 9:38 PM
                                Gee, this is some thread. I believe most all of the tribe members could do well to read all of it.
                                ........Might help a bit with some of the "anger" that's come up lately.
                              • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                Sat, December 29, 2007 - 10:42 PM
                                What is really interesting is nobody really knows what the Druid ways were. Even Bonawitz....probably not spelled right.....says it himself. The best any Celtic practioner can do is try to decide how best to honor their ancestors and since the rituals are made up by modern neo pagans I feel anything designed to honor those dieties (by whatever name they were then known) is a way to express my love for my heritage and my ancestors. Anyone claiming to follow the ancient ways or the Celtic way, is more than likely simply taking what they can from the few and far between texts available and calling it Celtic. We all need to understand there were Celts far and wide, not just in the British Isles.

                                Just an opinion. I am certainly far from an expert.
                                • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                  Sun, December 30, 2007 - 12:03 AM
                                  I'm not sure what you mean by "Celtic practitioner," but they could do far better than just slapping the term "Celtic" on modern Neopagan forms, by learning a Celtic language and thus entering it's specific worldview. "Celtic" is a linguistic and cultural term only. I don't see how any religious form can be called "Celtic" outside of that linguistic and cultural sphere.

                                  Also, why are you refering to "Celtic" as ancient? Tell me, how is Celtic ancient and Engish modern? If one is truely interested in learning to honoring deities/ancestors in a Celtic sense, then get a command of a Celtic language like modern Irish or Welsh. You'll gain access to an unbelievably rich and ancient body of lore, much of it has never been translated, and probably never will be. Learn Old-Irish, and you'll have access to ancient texts full of Celtic myth and Celtic Poetry to keep you busy for the next 30 to 40 years! And aren't those the very things which drew you to the Celtic tradition in the first place?
                                  • Unsu...
                                     

                                    Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                    Sun, December 30, 2007 - 12:44 PM
                                    ""Gee, this is some thread. I believe most all of the tribe members could do well to read all of it. ........Might help a bit with some of the "anger" that's come up lately.""

                                    No this is something I have never understood, and it's one of the biggest reasons I stopped discussing such topics on forums, chats, and pagan meetups. As time goes, and conquerers rule, over thousands of years of oppression, twisting of facts and information, and outright burning or killing of those involved, no one knows for sure what transpired in any ancient cultures.

                                    We are learning more as time and science allows, but unless we can go back in time and observe, talk to, and interact with those in ancient times, we have to piece together what we can and use that aspect that feels right or through the experiences directily associated with the gods or animals that teach us during journeys or life experiences. That is most important aspect of spirituality - what *we* see and feel that is handed down from the spiritual plane.

                                    So in answer to the quote above - why do people get so angry? Why can't people just pass on knowledge they have learned without the anger or hostility towards those who may have been misinformed, or perhaps simply believe differently? Who cares of Joe or Jane Pagan is following their path based on Celtic Wicca, or something that happens to rub you the wrong way? (You is a general you, not pointing to anyone in particular)

                                    Live and let live. If someone is following a path with specific guidelines, beliefs, cultural significance or gods/esses, and it works for them, and they show it throught their acts, then leave it alone? No one is an expert on exactly what the Celts did or didn't do. Yes we have information, but not the whole picture. Besides, they were nomadic, so they picked various cultural aspects that fit into their lives, like with the Romans. It has been said the Celts were originally Indo-European. What if the started out as Hindu? Not saying it's a fact, just using an example. By the time they arrived on the British Isles, their beliefs could have been completely different from where they started.

                                    Wicca may not be in-of-itself Celtic, but there are definite influences. Uncle Gerald worked in a lot of ecclecticism into Wicca. Perhaps there were historical or other aspects that were not accurate, but it still works for thousands of people.

                                    So why be angry? Live and let live. It isn't hurting you or anyone else if someone wants to combine various beliefs that work for them.
                                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                      Sun, December 30, 2007 - 4:18 PM
                                      Wicca uses all sorts of influences, but unfortunately a lot of people incorrectly parade it around as being a Celtic belief system. This confuses many who are trying to find the ways of their ancestors, especially if they are new to the concepts. The only problem I have is that it often is misinformed people leading other misinformed people, and it adds to a lot of the misconceptions we already face when rediscovering our ways.

                                      If you want to follow Wicca by all means, go ahead, it is as valid a path as any, but dont claim it to be a purely Celtic invention or use Celtic culture to enhance your image, it was invented by a man in the 50's who was a Freemason...which also I do not like.
                                    • Unsu...
                                       

                                      Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                      Sun, December 30, 2007 - 4:27 PM
                                      What's this about being angry or living and let live?

                                      I don't care how or what someone chooses to practice. I don't care if someone combines various belief systems.

                                      What I _do_ care about is someone calling something Celtic when it clearly is not. I don't care what people do, but I DO expect people to own up to what they're doing, and I expect them to KNOW what they're doing. If it ain't Celtic, DON'T call it such.

                                      If you're practicing something which is a purey 21st century creation, and you call it a ancient Celtic/Greek/Indian practice, you should expect to be taken anything BUT seriously. If your personal practice involves working with deities whose myths depict as hating each other, you should expect people to wonder if you know what the hell you're doing. If your ritual involves offerings to a Goddess that Her myths indicate Her as _not_ appreciating...well, wash, rinse, repeat.

                                      If you're doing something which is at odds with the known myths or histories, and you're claiming it's 100% certified authentic...well, people are going to treat you like an idiot and for damn good reason.
                                      • Unsu...
                                         

                                        Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                        Sun, December 30, 2007 - 5:25 PM
                                        And that shows the other side of it. If someone is walking around saying how something is authentic or "100%" exact, which is virually impossible, and it's not so, then of course they are open to question. However, with gods/desses that are at odds with each other, than perhaps they made up? LOL People have had personal experiences with deities, and who are we to say they have or have not. Even if the so-called "at odds" issue arises.

                                        I have connected with a deity that I had never even heard of from a culture and people I never heard of and had to research her name to find out who she is. That's one of the reasons I believe people do connect in ways that may seem unusual. Does this mean everyone is right? Nope. Some make stuff up while others truly experience these connections.
                                        • Unsu...
                                           

                                          Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                          Sun, December 30, 2007 - 6:37 PM
                                          Unusual is a far different animal from culturally accurate.

                                          There again, my issue, and that of others, I'm sure, has to do with someone NOT admitting that their practice is of their own invention, or whatever.

                                          Since you missed the point, I'll reiterate: the issue is someone claiming something to be historically accurate when that is NOT the case. It's one thing if a person was misinformed and has not had occasion to be educated on the subject in question, but quite another when someone disregards the known facts, whether it comes from the archeological record or written history or whatever.

                                          If someone has to pretend that a purely modern, artificially created system is historic in order to feel validated, they've got personal issues that are NOT going to be solved by ignoring historical accuracy.
                                          • Unsu...
                                             

                                            Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                            Sun, December 30, 2007 - 9:39 PM
                                            I didn't miss the point, I stated that those who claim that they are doing things accurately, or 100% are open to question as to their legitimacy. Then again, there are so-called experts on ancient history that argue they are right and another author is wrong, so that will always be. The best we can hope to do is stay as current as possible on the known information and share that with others. We learn knew things all the time about the world's history, so things can change too.
                                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                            Sun, December 30, 2007 - 9:49 PM
                                            "If someone has to pretend that a purely modern, artificially created system is historic in order to feel validated, they've got personal issues that are NOT going to be solved by ignoring historical accuracy."

                                            I tell people this all the time.

                                            Wicca is a valid tradition and those who practice it and are honest about its history are valid practitioners. Those who practice Wicca but insist it is some how a reconstruction of ancient Celtic tradition are invalid practitioners. Because they they are invalid practitioners, a valid tradition will not work for them because they have warped it to something it is not.

                                            There are some things we no from linguistic & the old myths & poems. That Honesty and Truth were highly important virtues to the Celtic mindset.

                                            Awen (or Imbas if you are Irish, and other words in other Celtic languages) is the shall we say Holy Spirit of Celtic spirituality. Wicca does not address Awen anywhere in their tradition.

                                            "It is said that the Awen stands for not simply inspiration, but for inspiration of truth; without Awen one cannot proclaim truth. The three foundations of Awen are the understanding of truth, the love of truth, and the maintaining of truth."

                                            Wicca tends to be a Me Me Me tradition, while Celtic spirituality tends to be a We We We tradition. Wiccans will defend their spiritual/religious individuality to the death, even the death of their community. Celtic practitioners will defend the survival of the community even if it kills them. Big difference in mindsets there.
                                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                      Sun, December 30, 2007 - 10:37 PM
                                      [rhyt said]
                                      <<No this is something I have never understood, and it's one of the biggest reasons I stopped discussing such topics on forums, chats, and pagan meetups. As time goes, and conquerers rule, over thousands of years of oppression, twisting of facts and information, and outright burning or killing of those involved, no one knows for sure what transpired in any ancient cultures.>>



                                      This is an overstatement. Though there's much we don't know concerning pre-Christian Celtic religions, there *is* much we do know. To excuse the intellectual laziness of the majority of Neopagans while they co-opt terminology, which is actually both much broader and much narrower than they want it to be, just to add some meaning to their spiritually and intellectually bankrupt "spirituality" is the reason some people here are upset.



                                      [rhyt said]
                                      <<We are learning more as time and science allows, but unless we can go back in time and observe, talk to, and interact with those in ancient times, we have to piece together what we can and use that aspect that feels right or through the experiences directily associated with the gods or animals that teach us during journeys or life experiences. That is most important aspect of spirituality - what *we* see and feel that is handed down from the spiritual plane.>>


                                      Personal spirituallity is one thing, organized religion is something very different. Celtic religion was a very structured and organized institution, no matter how much the Neopagan "lets do our own thing" crowd are opposed to the idea. Celtic Heathen religion wasn't and isn't merly some different option on the smorgasbord, it's an all-or-nothing situation; you can't "take" the religion out of the culture and still *be* a Celtic Heathen anymore than you can "take" the culture out of the religion and still be a Celt.




                                      [rhyt said]
                                      >>So in answer to the quote above - why do people get so angry? Why can't people just pass on knowledge they have learned without the anger or hostility towards those who may have been misinformed, or perhaps simply believe differently? Who cares of Joe or Jane Pagan is following their path based on Celtic Wicca, or something that happens to rub you the wrong way? (You is a general you, not pointing to anyone in particular)<<




                                      As long as you call it what it is. A personal spirituality which blends together religious/magical aspects of a variety of cultures is not representative of Celtic culture, or any other for that matter.


                                      [rhyt said]
                                      >> No one is an expert on exactly what the Celts did or didn't do. Yes we have information, but not the whole picture. Besides, they were nomadic, so they picked various cultural aspects that fit into their lives, like with the Romans. It has been said the Celts were originally Indo-European. What if the started out as Hindu? Not saying it's a fact, just using an example. By the time they arrived on the British Isles, their beliefs could have been completely different from where they started.>>


                                      The idea of the Celts being nomadic (The Wander Celt), is a vestige of the old racisim out of the Elizibethean period during the tudor conquest which forced many Irish and Scottish Celts off their native lands. As helpful as "Indo-Europeon" research is, it can go too far when speaking of Celtic culture, especially when disscussing the atlantic fringe and insular Celts, who were much further from the location where the Indo-Europeon cultural was thought to originate.



                                      [rhyt said]
                                      >>Wicca may not be in-of-itself Celtic, but there are definite influences. Uncle Gerald worked in a lot of ecclecticism into Wicca. Perhaps there were historical or other aspects that were not accurate, but it still works for thousands of people. >>




                                      And using that reasoning, one could say the Golden Dawn is Egyptian because it uses Egyptian themes throughout it.



                                      [rhyt said]
                                      >>So why be angry? Live and let live. It isn't hurting you or anyone else if someone wants to combine various beliefs that work for them.>>



                                      i think I made my point as to why in the above statements.
                                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                        Mon, December 31, 2007 - 2:03 PM
                                        Slightly off topic I know but someone a few posts back said celtic language was dieing or at least implied that. This is not the case. In Wales every school child learns Welsh. I know very many fluent Welsh Speakers. Signposts in Scotland are often in Gaelic as well as English. i can turn on the radio and here some Gaelic from The Isle of Man. TV programs in Scottish Gallic most days. Things may not be what they were but they are not that bad.

                                        Tony in Scotland
                                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                          Tue, January 1, 2008 - 9:48 PM
                                          The problem is much of what you say is a result of government support. Take away the funds and it can't stand on it's own. On top of that, Wales is being flooded by English speaker, just as Irish speaking areas are being effected by the "Celtic Tiger" invasion with many English speaking people wanting to move there. If you look at the long term projections it isn't promising. This is a major reason why I say those who follow a pre-Christian Celtic religion e.g., Celtic Reconstructionists, Celtic Heathens, Pagans, Revivalists, Sinsearaithe, ect., must relate to it *primarily* through it's original language. Culture/religion/language are things that must be taken as a whole to be understood.

                                          The reason the Celtic languages are in peril is because the the dominant cultures and religions in those parts of the world are completely alien to Celtic language.
                                  • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                    Tue, January 1, 2008 - 10:21 PM
                                    I don't believe I did refer to Celtic as ancient. I am well aware that it was and is a vast Culture. However by the term Celtic Practioner, I meant anyone who believes they are practicing some form of Celtic cultural based religion by way of ritual practice. I may not be a scholar or even be able to spell, but I am making an attempt to learn Irish from my Cosin who lives in Ireland, Old Irish, I have no idea, but I feel it may give me a start.

                                    By the way I hope you all have a great start to the new Calendar Year.....LOL
                                    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                      Wed, January 2, 2008 - 3:29 AM
                                      I think if you feel a connection to these peoples (our ancestors) in your heart, you can feel their spirits in your blood...that alone makes it unquestionable. The world has changed, our people have changed, it will never be the same, but we have to adapt. If English is to be our tongue, so be it. We have more in common with the Germanics than the Roman Latin culture anyway. It doesnt change what you feel in your heart, which is my point. Accept the term Celt for what it is, a loose generalisation of our many tribes. There is no shame in saying so, we have not lost anything by admitting it.

                                      There are only 5 or so million Scots in Scotland, but some 80 million overseas, so our languages will always survive, because we are a resourceful culture, and a global one. The only proof is that we are still standing proud after all these centuries. We may be a little confused about ourselves in some areas, but generally our spirits have not been broken.
                                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                        Wed, January 2, 2008 - 9:13 AM
                                        While I agree with much of what Cáemgen says I do not consider the English culture as completely Alien to Celtic culture. Scotland is a fine example of how Anglo-Saxon Germanic cultures and the related celtic cultures can mix successfully.

                                        Celtic Tiger across the sea from here is attracting back people of Celtic ancestry even though they may speak English.
                                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                          Wed, January 2, 2008 - 4:17 PM
                                          The English are part Celtic anyway...we have to stop dividing ourselves and being all nationalistic. A DNA test would surely prove we are all descended from the same stock.
                                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                            Wed, January 2, 2008 - 4:42 PM
                                            "The English are part Celtic anyway...we have to stop dividing ourselves and being all nationalistic. A DNA test would surely prove we are all descended from the same stock. "

                                            "Celtic" is a linguistic and cultural term *only*, it is not, nor has it ever been used as a racial denominator.
                                            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                              Wed, January 2, 2008 - 5:04 PM
                                              No shit sherlock...but it has been in the past misused by some people as an ethnic term.
                                              • Unsu...
                                                 

                                                Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                                Wed, January 2, 2008 - 5:11 PM
                                                Um, YOU were the one who implied that you believed Celtic to be a genetic term, with the statement "the English are part Celtic anyway."

                                                No need to get pissy that someone corrected you.
                                                • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                                  Wed, January 2, 2008 - 5:14 PM
                                                  No, it wasnt meant in a genetic term, it was meant in a cultural sense. Part Celtic meaning they were influenced by the culture to an extent...being a formely Celtic land pre-Roman and Saxon.

                                                  Dont tell me what I meant, you love changing peoples words around to start arguments dont you?.
                                                  • Unsu...
                                                     

                                                    Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                                    Wed, January 2, 2008 - 5:35 PM
                                                    Hey, you know what? Drop the combative 'no shit sherlock/duh' elements from your posts, because that might've been what you MEANT, but it is not what YOUR words _conveyed_.
                                              • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                                Mon, July 14, 2008 - 6:04 PM
                                                I'd disagree there are phenotypes that would definately best described
                                                by none other than Celt (& if I may add: Viking).
                                                Do bear in mind that cultures meet & mingle,
                                                races intertwine & intercourse...
                                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                          Wed, January 2, 2008 - 4:38 PM
                                          "....I do not consider the English culture as completely Alien to Celtic culture."

                                          Then you also must think that the relationship between language and culture is a minor one. Not only is the language of Anglo American culture completely different to Celtic culture, it's hostile to it in many ways.

                                          The Celtic concepts of law e.g., Irish Brehon Law system and the Welsh Laws of Hywel Dya, were completely foreign and incapatible to the laws of the English Tudors (whose laws *we* inherited) and they made every effort to extinguish them. Also, Celtic societal structure was based on kinship and was completely different than the Anglo-Norman concept of feudalism.


                                          "Scotland is a fine example of how Anglo-Saxon Germanic cultures and the related celtic cultures can mix successfully. "


                                          Anglo-Saxon England ended in 1066, I don't see how that's relevant. Northumbrian Angles, willingly joined the Kingdom of Scots in order to escape being conquered and dominated by the Duke of Normandy. I agree that the society of Thegns and meadhalls was not that much different than Celtic society, especially when compared to Roman society and Norman society. But we've inherited along with the English tongue the "feudilist mentaily" and a baggage of neurotic concepts from Victorian era Latin-derived words.

                                      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                        Sat, January 5, 2008 - 8:37 AM
                                        Sir Cianaodh, Thanks for your input and your above statement. It is so true and so logical. I agree completely!
                                        • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                          Mon, May 19, 2008 - 10:34 AM
                                          Thanks for this informative interesting debate.
                                          • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                            Fri, May 23, 2008 - 9:08 PM
                                            It is amazing that this discussion has been ongoing since November 2005. That 2 1/2 years.

                                            I found the original post interesting. Whenever I read anything about the Celtic traditions I always keep in mind that it is all speculation. There are tranditions, legends, myths, and stories that have been passed down through the Irish and Scottish people. But are these really part of the ancient Celtic believe systems and pracitces? Since the ancient Celts did not have a written language, how do we really know?
                                            • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

                                              Mon, May 26, 2008 - 5:53 PM
                                              "All speculation"? That attitude, along with this constant use of the word "ancient" whenever referring to the term Celtic will just complicate efforts to understand it.

                                              A lot can be learned from linguistics and of course learning a Celtic language. Without that, truly then all is just speculation.
  • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

    Mon, July 14, 2008 - 6:11 PM
    -- Wicca has a Hindu engine, an Egyptian torque converter and a Celtic transmission. These things were set in a ceremonial body that, while reflective of the bodies used by the Hermetic Orders, is Wiccan alone. It is a creature unto itself.

    "All roads lead to Rome."

    Religions are all similar save for symbolisms,
    they have one deep goal beneat them all; religare.
    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Sat, August 30, 2008 - 3:37 PM
      Wow, this topic has run since november 2005 I wonder if it's a record for tribe......I believe (not coming from an academic viewpoint) the changing of the seasons are generally celebrated in most (if not all) continents, Gardiner and his poaching habit, did his bit for the neo practioners of natures religion....no matter whether you were i the northern hemisphere or the southern hemisphere, whether it was pre or post christianity, the gods/goddess's were thanked in whatever form for assisting the people in existing for another season...

      peaceful greetings to all......
      • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Sat, August 30, 2008 - 8:53 PM
        Yeah, it's coming up on the third Anniversary of this thread, and it's 100th post.

        And the originator has since left Tribe.

        But it doesn't matter - the thread is Alive! Alive, I tell you! It breathes, it is AWARE. It will outlive us all.

        Sorry. It's way late and I've had way too many cookies.
    • Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

      Sun, August 31, 2008 - 10:37 AM
      That's cool. I love that description. :)
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: Why Wicca Is Not Celtic

        Sun, August 31, 2008 - 12:54 PM
        yeah, it's incredible that this post continues on and on and on and on, rehashing the same old argument. Funny, though, I have yet to hear anyone, anyone. to make the actual statement that Wicca is an ancient Celtic Pagan practice. Wicca has its roots in a lot of religious practices, both "ancient" but mostly "modern" thanks to Mr. Gardner. I don't believe he actually stated it was all Celtic.

        It seems that so-called reconstructionalists use this argument to give the excuse to bash Wiccans. I no longer consider myself Wiccan, and I have seen and met those from a variety of Pagan beliefs that, no matter what, they are right because of A, B, and C. Usually it's what they read out of a book, and very little to no actual experiences of their own.

        Just because it is in a book, doesn't make it right. How about simply experiencing the gods for oneself? How about actually putting into practice what one preaches? Let's forget about the writings of endless authors and followers who lay claim that they know the one true way that things were and realize we don't know it all.

        Even many tarot teachers say to leave the book closed and learn from the cards and your own internal spiritual system, not read the interpetations of someone else.

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